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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 4, 2021 17:45:22 GMT
One thing I think is fascinating, is that although the various comic book universes are basically the same as OTL int he 20th century (except for a few extra countries on most Earths) they also have some significant historical divergences. Some of the more well known ones are 1) Leonid Brezhnev still leading the Soviet Union on Earth-4 2) Quebec being independent and Apartheid abolished on Earth-2, and 3) FDR dying early on Earth-X
I've discovered a few other little divergences in World War 2, on some of the Earths. I'd love to hear speculation on how these changes could have affected later history on each earth.
1) on Earth-S, Joseph Goebbels did not commit suicide in 1945. Instead, he fled to Alaska with a horde of stolen gold and settled there, marrying an Inuit woman (Whiz Comics #52)
2) on either Earth-X or Earth-Quality (it could be either in my opinion), the Death Patrol plants a bomb in Tokyo which assassinated Emperor Hirohito and Reich Foreign Minister Ribbentrop (who was apparently a general on this earth) during a diplomatic meeting. Prime Minister Tojo is left badly disfigured, but survives (Military Comics #21)
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 6, 2021 0:40:25 GMT
Insodar as Brezhnev's health went, Wikipedia has this to say: "Brezhnev had struggled with several ailments since 1974, most notably heart disease, leukemia, jaw cancer, emphysema and circulatory disease, all of which had been exacerbated by his heavy smoking and obesity. There had been rumours of Brezhnev's death ever since the mid-1970s; he had been absent from important meetings demanded by protocol and it was rumoured that his health was in decline. Brezhnev had rarely appeared in public for most of 1982 and was usually surrounded by doctors, although the Soviet Government insisted that he was not ill. He suffered a severe stroke in May 1982, but refused to relinquish office until he died on 10 November 1982 after suffering a heart attack": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_and_state_funeral_of_Leonid_Brezhnev#:~:text=He%20suffered%20a%20severe%20stroke,after%20suffering%20a%20heart%20attack.&text=Brezhnev's%20death%20was%20announced%20on,Soviet%20radio%20and%20television%20hosts. So, what might have happened on Earth-4 to extend his lifespan? There may well have been emergency surgery in 1982, but given his overall poor health, it is unlikely to have extended his lifespan by significantly long past 1982. 1984 is pushing it somewhat. He would have eventually succumbed to his plethora of health conditions. Perhaps Earth-4's Leonid Brezhnev wasn't as obese or didn't smoke as much? That might explain his apparent longevity. In the case of Earth-S, Goebbels might have circulated around US neofascist groups and contributed to the survival and later appearance of Captain Nazi. However, Nazi racist ideology makes it unlikely he would have married an Inuit woman after his flight from Nazi Germany. He would have become a figurehead for neo-Nazi groups in postwar Germany. Perhaps this "Goebbels" might have been an imposter. The violent death of Emperor Hirohito would have probably had the effect of keeping the Japanese in the war and increasing their commitment to the Axis on Earth-X, considering the Japanese Emperor was considered to be a descendant of Amaterasu, the Sun Goddess. Tojo would have been able to manipulate the situation to appeal to the Japanese people following the 'atrocity' of the assassination of their Emperor and also be able to dominate the new Emperor, Akihito, given his relative youth and inexperience as he ascends the Chrysanthemum Throne. There had been three attempted assassination attempts on Hirohito beforehand- in 1923, 1925 and 1932. However, there seem to have been none since 1932, indicating overall veneration and support of Hirohito, even as a patriotic figurehead: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_attempts_on_HirohitoAs for the Assassination of Ribbentrop, it depends on what point of the war he was assassinated at. However, we're talking about Earth-X here, so the course of events would be different. One of Ribbentrop's roles was keeping Nazi Germany's allies onside, particularly after the war turned against them after Stalingrad and the failure of OperatioN Barbarossa against the USSR. On Earth-X, the course of events might have been different, especially if John Nance Garner kept the purse strings too tight as Roosevelt's replacement. His job as the Reich's Foreign Minister would have been far easier if there had been Nazi military victories that didn't happen in OTL- say, greater success in Stalingrad and increased Japanese resolve and commitment to the Axis following the violent death of Hirohito: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_von_RibbentropMartin Luther would probably have been Ribbentrop's replacement as Foreign Minister, given how badly he wanted the position. With Ribbentrop out of the way, the job would have been his: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_(diplomat)Another alternative to Ribbentrop might have been Franz Rademacher : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_RademacherRibbentrop was entrusted with Nazi formation of the Axis with Imperial Japan as well as the betrayal of the USSR after the Nazi/Soviet Pact of 1936.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 14, 2021 11:05:33 GMT
Some more information on Earth-Quality
the Earth-Quality version of the United Nations is called the United World, and is based in London, not New York City. Unlike the UN in our world, it includes only the free world as members, and seems to combine the functions of the UN, NATO, SEATO, and Interpol.They have their own military to enforce peace, called the International Security Force, and also run the Citadel of Science on a remote island where scientists from every nation can pool their abilities.
To me, that fact that the UN and NATO are one organization on Earth-Quality, indicates that there is a much sharper divide in their version of the Cold War. There is much less opportunity for dialogue with the communists. The fact that they are either excluded or have chosen to elude themselves from the United World suggests that the free nations already see one world government as only achievable when the communists are crushed.
On the positive side, that fact that this version of the UN includes no dictatorships increases their moral integrity in my opinion. They can lay down international law without being hypocrites.
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 14, 2021 17:26:36 GMT
Regarding Brezhnev, I don’t think it has been explicitly stated but the Earth-4 version was a puppet of extraterrestrials who really control the Soviet Union for their own purposes, and so their technology was able to extend his life for as long as he was still useful. His death is a plot point in an upcoming story.
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 14, 2021 18:21:58 GMT
In other words, at the end of the day it’s a comic book story, folks. Life extending science exists. Aliens exist. Super-powers exist. We can use some real world facts to help with the suspension of disbelief, but ultimately the plot of a story dictates everything.
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 14, 2021 18:28:12 GMT
Even more unbelievable is that on our Earth-X Adolf Hitler remained alive despite his extreme decrepitude until 1985 when he was given a “super soldier” type of serum that made him younger and more vital again (but also made him fall under Dr. Lila Minerva’s control), and unable to be killed by normal means.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 15, 2021 1:32:01 GMT
In other words, at the end of the day it’s a comic book story, folks. Life extending science exists. Aliens exist. Super-powers exist. We can use some real world facts to help with the suspension of disbelief, but ultimately the plot of a story dictates everything. But that's part of what makes the speculation so much fun. You can find the divergences in history, and then speculate on how this could be a result of the influence of superheros. For example, I've always wondered if the JSA, or other heroes of Earth-2, had an adventure in South Africa which inspired the people to end apartheid early.
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Post by jonclark on Apr 15, 2021 6:35:18 GMT
In other words, at the end of the day it’s a comic book story, folks. Life extending science exists. Aliens exist. Super-powers exist. We can use some real world facts to help with the suspension of disbelief, but ultimately the plot of a story dictates everything. But that's part of what makes the speculation so much fun. You can find the divergences in history, and then speculate on how this could be a result of the influence of superheros. For example, I've always wondered if the JSA, or other heroes of Earth-2, had an adventure in South Africa which inspired the people to end apartheid early. I'd say it might be more indirect. Just knowing that there is a chance that strongarm tactics will attract the JSA (or others) might make some Earth-2 governments more likely to concede than risk having Superman or the Spectre show up if they publicly put down resistance movements.
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 16, 2021 1:29:24 GMT
Hmmm. Normally, I dislike deus ex machina plots or interpellations, although I have no problems with what you've described here. Although the question is why aliens from that particular universe contacted the USSR and assisted Brezhnev's relative longevity. Was their own social order akin to Soviet communism? Also, when did this occur? Fortunately, there are several G class stars and exoplanetary systems with possible habitable worlds that could be extrapolated within our adjacent stellar vicinity who might have intercepted human telecommunications as they emanate out from our own solar system -certainly Alpha Centauri or Proxima Centauri, Barnard's Star, Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani and Episilon Indi, Sirius, Procyon and 61 Cygni might be good prospects within a mere fifteen light year radius. Or you might want to try one of the neighbouring red dwarves. Fomalhaut (25 light years) might also be a good bet. As for Hitler, I suspect Nazi medical science could have experimented earlier with stem cells and contributed to Hitler's longevity that way.
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 16, 2021 4:54:44 GMT
How much further advanced is this USSR's technology than the datum in our world? Because that would have some spinoff effects. I can't see them tolerating Solidarity's status as an independent trade union in Poland or liberal dissidents like Vaclav Havel and Charter 77 in Czechoslovakia. Was there an Afghan War on Earth-Quality? Because if there was, I suspect it would have been far more onesided than its equivalent OTL, which was analogous to the US experience in the Vietnam War. If this world is far more politically polarised than ours, it makes sense that the USSR would be far more ruthless within its sphere of influence.
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 16, 2021 4:57:35 GMT
Come to think of it, what about Able Archer and the Soviet mainframe malfunction on 26 September 1983? Or would the United World be less provocative on Earth-Quality and might the USSR's early warning systems be technologically more developed, so the near-miss on 26 September never happened in the first place?: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Petroven.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83And would Brezhnev's successors, Yuri Andropov (1982-1984) and Konstantin Chernenko (1984-1985) have had access to the same longevity technology that Brezhnev had? Or would the succession have gone straight to Gorbachev? Or someone else in the 27th Soviet Politburo (1981-1988) instead of Gorbachev? Here's a list of potential alternatives to Gorbachev should you want to pursue that option: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/26th_Politburo_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_UnionHere are two possibilities: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Shcherbytskyen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_ChebrikovOf these two, Chebrikov strikes me as the most likely hardline option, given his KGB background. In a more politically polarised USSR, he might be seen as preferable to a relative 'liberal' like Gorbachev. In OTL, this is why he was sacked from the Politburo by Gorbachev in 1989: www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/1989/09/21/gorbachev-purges-5-from-politburo/9baa1967-a39c-445a-bd05-a8b464fe6b2a/Other candidates might be participants in the failed 1991 coup attempt that closed the door on the USSR after it failed to overthrow Gorbachev due to his reforms: "Soviet Vice President Gennady Yanayev, KGB Chairman Vladimir Kryuchkov and Defense Minister Dmitry Yazov as well as Prime Minister Valentin Pavlov and Interior Minister Boris Pugo. Others involved were Valery Boldin, the head of Gorbachev’s secretariat, Oleg Baklanov, the deputy head of the Soviet Defense Council, and Oleg Shenin, a Communist Party Central Committee secretary. They were joined by Deputy Defense Minister Valentin Varennikov and two others, Vasily Starodubtsev and Alexander Tizyakov" The core players were Baklanov, Boldin, Shenin and Varennikov, who wanted to appoint Yanayev in Gorbachev's place: www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-coup-qa-idUSTRE77F2GC20110816
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 16, 2021 5:11:55 GMT
Hmmm. Normally, I dislike deus ex machina plots or interpellations, although I have no problems with what you've described here. Although the question is why aliens from that particular universe contacted the USSR and assisted Brezhnev's relative longevity. Was their own social order akin to Soviet communism? Also, when did this occur? Fortunately, there are several G class stars and exoplanetary systems with possible habitable worlds that could be extrapolated within our adjacent stellar vicinity who might have intercepted human telecommunications as they emanate out from our own solar system -certainly Alpha Centauri or Proxima Centauri, Barnard's Star, Tau Ceti, Epsilon Eridani and Episilon Indi, Sirius, Procyon and 61 Cygni might be good prospects within a mere fifteen light year radius. Or you might want to try one of the neighbouring red dwarves. Fomalhaut (25 light years) might also be a good bet. As for Hitler, I suspect Nazi medical science could have experimented earlier with stem cells and contributed to Hitler's longevity that way. It happened way back in a Captain Atom story from the early 60s. The Silver Ladies of Venus. They might be part of the reason why the Soviet Union was much more aggressive and expansionist in its actions against the West, as seen in several unconnected Charlton Comics stories from that era.
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 16, 2021 5:36:14 GMT
I tracked down the Captain Atom story you referred to, which was set in 1961. Hmmm. So, that would still affect future Soviet attitudes within its sphere of influence from then onwward, assuming that after their Captain Atom defeat in 1961, the SLVs were more cunning in their infiltration strategy. Which means that the shape of Soviet institutions would look very different from the mid-sixties onward. Liberal, reformist Soviet members wouldn't get appointed and might well get purged out of those institutions. They would have acted more promptly in Czechoslovakia in 1968, in Poland in 1981 and probably in Afghanistan in 1981, assuming Afghanistan happened in the first place. Incidentally, is it definitively established the Silver Ladies are actually Venusian? Could they possibly be descendants of an interstellar colonisation attempt on Venus instead? I'll do some more research and get back to you.
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Post by DocQuantum on Apr 16, 2021 5:54:46 GMT
Yeah, you guessed right. They're not native to Venus.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 16, 2021 13:15:00 GMT
Quality Comics went out of business in 1956. So, maybe there was a nuclear exchange that year on Earth-Quality, as a result of the greater tension with the Soviet's.
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