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Post by redsycorax on Apr 17, 2021 0:05:43 GMT
There actually was a nuclear close call on 5 November 1956, during the Suez Crisis: "During the Suez Crisis, the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD) received a number of simultaneous reports, including unidentified aircraft over Turkey, Soviet MiG-15 fighters over Syria, a downed British Canberra medium bomber, and unexpected maneuvers by the Soviet Black Sea Fleet through the Dardanelles that appeared to signal a Soviet offensive. Considering previous Soviet threats to use conventional missiles against France and the United Kingdom, U.S. forces believed these events could trigger a NATO nuclear strike against the Soviet Union. In fact, all reports of Soviet action turned out to be erroneous, misinterpreted, or exaggerated. The perceived threat was due to a coincidental combination of events, including a wedge of swans over Turkey, a fighter escort for Syrian President Shukri al-Quwatli returning from Moscow, a British bomber brought down by mechanical issues, and scheduled exercises of the Soviet fleet." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls#5_November_1956The main problem with a nuclear exchange in 1956 from your perspective, John, would have been the total destruction of the USSR given the massive nuclear arms race imbalance in favour of the United States. So I'd advise strongly against using that particular scenario at that point. I know Turtledove's Hot war trilogy depicts a stalemated quasi-nuclear WW3 in 1950, but we're talking about several years later.
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 17, 2021 0:36:20 GMT
Let's think about this further. The Silver Ladies are established as descendants of a failing alien colony on Venus. However, stagnation and technological stasis has meant that they are only a few years to a decade in advance of current standards of Terran technology, so while this results in a Western-Soviet stalemate in terms of technological development, the USSR does not develop a decisive technological advantage. However, there would be ruthlessness exercised when it came to Czechoslovakia, Poland and Afghanistan (if the situation there had been allowed to deteriorate that badly). The question is, what would have happened in Vietnam during this era? Did JFK or RFK pull the United States out of Vietnam more quickly? Of course, you could always cheat and have France retain colonial control of Indochina after WW2 so that never becomes a consideration in the first place. That might mean the USSR and PRC turn their attention to the communist insurgencies in the Philippines, Malaysia and Indonesia instead, though. As for the internal development of the USSR, alien control of Brezhnev might enable him to make certain economic reforms that prevent the USSR from entering the long period of stagnation that ensued during his leadership. With greater economic success and consumer satisfaction, the attraction of dissidence might well end up blunted and liberal communist elements would be purged or have their career trajectories blocked, neutralising them- so, no Gorbachev. That would certainly play into the SLV's objectives. As to what those objectives are, I would guess guiding Soviet technological development so that it becomes capable of interstellar travel and then utilising that to travel to their solar system of ancestral origin, with which they have lost contact due to their technological decline or events in their system of origin.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Apr 28, 2021 1:31:17 GMT
I found another divergence in the history of Earth-S
In Marvel Family #81, Captain Marvel battles the Plundering Pasha, who was caliph in the year 1000 AD. The Pasha is clearly unique to the history of Earth-S, and probably not the same person as Caliph Al-Qadir from our world. Baghdad was wiped out by the black plague in 1000 AD on Earth-S, which definitely did not happen in our world. later, the Pasha himself uses magic to destroy the city of Baghdad in an attempt to kill Captain Marvel. The destruction of Baghdad and the end of the Abbasid Caliphate in 1000 AD would definitely have ripple effects on the next 200 years of Muslim history
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Post by redsycorax on Apr 28, 2021 3:54:41 GMT
The problem is, the premature destruction of the Abbasid Caliphate would have been too major a divergence. The Abbasid Caliphate was one of the high points of Islamic civilisation- it was responsible for discoveries in mathematics, medicine, chemistry, optics, architecture and irrigation. If the Abbasid Caliphate had been destroyed too early, that would have been a major setback for the European Renaissance four hundred years later- but clearly, Earth-S did have a Renaissance itself. So, here's an alternative- the Pasha was clearly boasting and the city in which this battle took place with Captain Marvel was not Baghdad, a major metropolitan centre on our world and probably Earth-S as well. I'd suggest a slight tweak here- perhaps, instead of Baghdad, have the Pasha a local figure of repute in one of the former Abbasid capitals, like Kufa, Anbar, al-Rummiyah, Raqqa or Samara. It would mean that the impact was significant, but not world-changing, such as the destruction of Baghdad and the consequent premature collapse of the Abbasid Caliphate: prezi.com/pdezumfdbzg5/abbasid-technology/#:~:text=During%20the%20Abbasid%20empire%20Baghdad,%2CPaper%20making%2C%20and%20Irrigation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_Caliphate
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Post by johnreiter902 on Aug 15, 2021 1:18:26 GMT
On Earth-66 (the world of the Adams West TV series), in addition to Russia, China, America, Britain, and France, Germany, Japan, Israel, and Nigeria are members of the UN Security Council. This means World War 2 was very different, and there may be earlier divergences.
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Post by redsycorax on Aug 15, 2021 2:47:29 GMT
Not necessarily. Earth-66's World War Two might have been different in some of its details, perhaps through a prolonged Pacific War and land invasion of Japan, or Nazi capture of Moscow earlier which might well have prolonged the European theatre, or perhaps both. So, the Allies end up controlling the whole of Germany because the USSR is focused on the Pacific theatre. The composition of Earth-66's UN Security Council suggests a more multipolar world order than on our world. Germany and Japan might have been given UNSC seats out of a sense of equity, Israel might have developed nuclear weapons sooner than on our world and Nigeria is certainly a considerable West African regional power already- it may be more politically stable and less corrupt than on our Earth. It's interesting that a consequent South Asian regional power like India doesn't seem to have a UNSC seat, though.
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Post by DocQuantum on Aug 16, 2021 16:33:40 GMT
2) on either Earth-X or Earth-Quality (it could be either in my opinion), the Death Patrol plants a bomb in Tokyo which assassinated Emperor Hirohito and Reich Foreign Minister Ribbentrop (who was apparently a general on this earth) during a diplomatic meeting. Prime Minister Tojo is left badly disfigured, but survives (Military Comics #21)
I’ve read all the Death Patrol stories and I’m now convinced that the majority of them must take place on Earth-12. They become more and more cartoonish as the series progresses. I think only the first few stories are canon for Earth-X, and then the rest can be dismissed, unless they’re a distorted reflection of what really happened. Sort of like how, in the 1988 Plastic Man miniseries, you could see how Plastic Man views the world as a cartoony, humorous place drawn in a Jack Cole style, versus the way anyone else sees the world, in a more realistic way. They used the same effect when Plas and Woozy guest starred in a Superman comic a little while later. If this exaggerated effect is in effect for the later Death Patrol stories, then a version of that story could have occurred, but not exactly in the same way.
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Post by dave on Aug 16, 2021 21:09:45 GMT
Death Patrol had two separate runs in Military Comics 1-12 and then from issue 20 on to the first 9 issues of Modern Comics. Having read all them as well I'd put the entire second run on Earth 12. Thus first Death Patrol from Earth X or Quality having died during their top secret mission reference in their reappearance.
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Post by redsycorax on Aug 17, 2021 0:09:16 GMT
In which case, might Earth-12 have also had a Ma Hunkel Red Tornado, given that the cartoonishness of that character might mean she's more suitable for that Earth?
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Post by dave on Aug 17, 2021 1:50:34 GMT
I don't think so, elsewise one would have to put a lot of the Golden Age Flash stories with the 3 dimwits and almost all the Johnny Thunder stories there as well.
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Post by DocQuantum on Aug 17, 2021 2:13:54 GMT
I don't think so, elsewise one would have to put a lot of the Golden Age Flash stories with the 3 dimwits and almost all the Johnny Thunder stories there as well. Agreed. It really depends on the level of believability. The aforementioned Plastic Man still works on Earth-X or Earth-1 for the reasons I cited above. Another series of stories I'd set on Earth-12 are the Chop-Chop backup stories from Blackhawk. The character was originally introduced as comic relief like Woozy Winks or Doiby Dickles or Ebony White (with unfortunate racial stereotypes), but when DC bought the Blackhawks he began to be transformed into a more serious character. At Quality, he remained comic relief through to the mid-1950s, and had extremely cartoony adventures that bore little resemblance to reality, and never really seemed all that connected to Blackhawk's world at all. So I'd say while the Blackhawk stories featuring Chop-Chop take place on Earth-X, the Chop-Chop backup stories are Earth-12.
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Post by dave on Aug 17, 2021 23:24:24 GMT
Add the Torchy Todd stories as well as Her Highness, Big Brother, and Granny Gumshoe from Quality. On a side note: Chop Chop lost all of his caricature racial stereotype drawing at the very end of the Quality run of Blackhawk, but wasn't given a uniform matching the rest of the team until their red jacket and green pants togs in the 1960's.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Aug 28, 2021 2:52:08 GMT
The problem is, the premature destruction of the Abbasid Caliphate would have been too major a divergence. The Abbasid Caliphate was one of the high points of Islamic civilisation- it was responsible for discoveries in mathematics, medicine, chemistry, optics, architecture and irrigation. If the Abbasid Caliphate had been destroyed too early, that would have been a major setback for the European Renaissance four hundred years later- but clearly, Earth-S did have a Renaissance itself. So, here's an alternative- the Pasha was clearly boasting and the city in which this battle took place with Captain Marvel was not Baghdad, a major metropolitan centre on our world and probably Earth-S as well. I'd suggest a slight tweak here- perhaps, instead of Baghdad, have the Pasha a local figure of repute in one of the former Abbasid capitals, like Kufa, Anbar, al-Rummiyah, Raqqa or Samara. It would mean that the impact was significant, but not world-changing, such as the destruction of Baghdad and the consequent premature collapse of the Abbasid Caliphate: prezi.com/pdezumfdbzg5/abbasid-technology/#:~:text=During%20the%20Abbasid%20empire%20Baghdad,%2CPaper%20making%2C%20and%20Irrigation. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbasid_CaliphateI guess that works. He might have been lying to Captain Marvel, trying to make himself seem greater than he was. More likely, he was delusional, having suffered a break with reality when his subjects all died in the plague. Captain Marvel even mentions in the comic that the Pasha seems to be out of his mind.
As for the city no being Baghdad, Captain Marvel has never been to ancient Baghdad before, and even the Wisdom of Solomon doesn't make him omniscient. He might have simply assumed it was Baghdad.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jan 19, 2023 12:31:11 GMT
Another comic book universe with a very different history from out own is Earth-MLJ
In 1941, Mr. Justice flew to Germany and eliminated Goering, Goebbels, and Ribbentrop. He was hoping that the loss of his= key ministers would make Hitler's regime fall apart.
Other comics indicate that WW2 lasted about as long as OTL, but I wonder what affects these early deaths had on history? For one thing, Goering would not be alive by the time of the Nuremberg trials.
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Post by redsycorax on Jan 19, 2023 23:59:49 GMT
Goebbels: As well as being Nazi Propaganda Minister, he was also Gauleiter of Berlin. He might have been difficult to replace and if that were the case, there might be increased unrest in the German capital as a result of that elimination. He is also known to have pushed Hitler and other senior Nazis to have adopted a 'total war' strategy from 1942 onward.
Goering: Much would depend on when Goering was taken out of the picture. Hitler launched Operation Barbarossa OTL in June 1941 when he invaded the USSR. If the event happened beforehand, a different Air Force High Command configuration might have led to the fall of Moscow, although whether the USSR had an alternative centre of operations available is a moot point. On the other hand, Hitler might have appointed someone less competent. In which case, the Eastern Front strategic situation would have deteriorated due to poorer Luftwaffe air support. So, that would have been a major problem for the Nazis on Earth-MLJ.
Ribbentrop: He had a core role in convincing Nazi Germany's fascist allies and satellite states to collaborate in co-ordination of the Holocaust. Depending on the cultural anti-Semitism in the satellite or allied fascist states, that might have still continued without him, sadly. However, it seems as if Earth-MLJ had an adept replacement when it came to convincing Imperial Japan to negotiate in bad faith with the United States when it came to the impending Pacific War theatre after December 1941. The SS would have had greater influence within Earth-MLJ's Nazi Germany as a result of that elimination, due to interneccine tensions between the Foreign Ministry and SS.
Conclusion: Much would have depended on who Hitler appointed to the core roles vacated by the elimination of the aforementioned individuals. My prognosis with what John has described is that even if World War II still ended in 1945, there might be details that diverge from the datum, such as different high echelon Nazi personnel, different Operation Barbarossa outcomes due to the elimination of Goering and domestic problems might have led to an escalation of dissent in Berlin. It is agreed that Goebbels' role was increasingly sidelined after the Stalingrad debacle and Nazi defeats in the USSR which ensued. Goering had a more major strategic role when it came to the Luftwaffe in Barbarossa, though, and his death would have had major consequences.
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