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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 9, 2021 3:14:51 GMT
What if the three greatest golden age heroes of Marvel and DC were switched, and existed in each other’s universe?
I am switching their ENTIRE TIMELINES, making them natives of the other universe. Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman are now heroes of Earth-616, and do not exist on Earth-2, and Captain America, Sub-Mariner and the Human Torch are heroes of Earth-2, and do not exist on Earth-616.
Note that ONLY the heroes themselves are switched and the parts of the origins which are necessary to keep those origins the same. Villains and secondary characters remain on the others they started on. (Superman is now native to New York on Earth-616, but Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen are still native to Earth-2’s Metropolis)
On Earth-2
There is no planet Krypton, it never existed. The Kent family also does not exist. However, the Antarctica Atlantean city of Tha-Korr does exist, and so does Leonard McKenzie The Wayne Family does not exist, but the Rogers family does, and so does Abraham Erskine The Amazons are more like how they were in actual mythology, and were wiped out in ancient Greece. However, Professor Phineas Horton does exist.
One Earth-616
The Atlantean city of Tha-Korr never existed; the ancestors of its founders were not born. Leonard McKenzie also does not exist. However, the planet Krypton exists, and so do the Kent family. The Rogers family did not exist, nor did Dr. Erskine. However, the Wayne family exists in New York City. Phineas Horton does not exist. However, Paradise Island exists, replacing the marvel version of Themyscira.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 9, 2021 5:47:34 GMT
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 9, 2021 8:16:14 GMT
In the Golden Age they didn't have as many crossovers (unless you count retroactive series like INVADERS and ALL-STAR SQUADRON), so for DC at least the most potential for differences outside of their respective titles is in the Justice Society of America stories in ALL-STAR COMICS. Superman and Batman wouldn't have been around to become honorary members, so it's possible Sub-Mariner and Human Torch (Captain America wasn't around in 1940 when the JSA was formed) were involved in the JSA's origin story. But until very recently Sub-Mariner would've been seen as a villain for his villainous actions when he waged war on New York City and the entire upper world around this time. I think that would've changed the dynamic of the JSA origin quite a bit. I'd have to think of that one for a bit. EDIT: According to Marvel Wikia's detailed history of Sub-Mariner, he became a "hero" just in time for that fateful November 1940, so he indeed could've participated in the JSA origin as one of the others, though he'd likely only accept honorary status as Superman did, but for different reasons.
I could see Captain America joining the All-Star Squadron when it is formed, and possibly also becoming a short-term member of the JSA like Wildcat and Mister Terrific were in the 1940s. He wouldn't be around after 1945 to become a full-time member.
And while Wonder Woman wouldn't have been around to join the JSA as its official secretary (and later full member) in late 1941/early 1942, I can't see the Human Torch playing the same role.
Say, if the supporting characters remain on their world of origin, does that mean Captain America's sidekick would be Robin, while Batman's would be Bucky? Would that make the Human Torch's sidekick Etta Candy, with Wonder Woman's sidekick being Toro? What a strange idea!
Perhaps Lois Lane had a tempestuous romance with the Sub-Mariner, something akin to the Silver Age Sue Storm and Sub-Mariner pairing, except with no Reed Richards around. The Daily Planet (or Daily Star, if you will) would have rightly seen the Sub-Mariner as a menace, much like the Daily Bugle would claim Spider-Man was in the Silver Age, but with much more reason. Perhaps Lois is the only one to start seeing a softer side to Namor that would a few years later lead him to join the war against the Axis.
Superman on Earth-616 in New York City is probably not too different in the Golden Age. I suppose as Clark Kent he might become a newspaper reporter at the same newspaper that Betty Dean later worked at (the newspaper name didn't seem important enough to mention in stories I've seen), after she quit as a policewoman -- or perhaps the DAILY BUGLE back when J. Jonah Jameson was still a reporter. They might be colleagues from his arrival in New York City from whatever real-world small town Clark came from only because they were often present at the same crime scene, and she likely saw him as an annoying, frail fellow compared with Superman. After she became a reporter herself, they probably worked closer together after that. I'd assume Clark would have married Betty instead of Lois in this scenario. No Lex Luthor, no Ultra-Humanite, no Prankster, no Toyman, no Mr. Mxyztplk -- so Superman's main enemies might end up being a few of Sub-Mariner's villains along with random Golden Age Marvel villains. There aren't too many memorable ones.
Batman and Bucky's main foe would be the Red Skull, I guess. The circumstances of Batman taking in Bucky as his partner would take some explaining. In some ways it might work better if Bucky was Wonder Woman's sidekick, given their shared military affiliations, though different branches of the military. But that would leave Batman with either no sidekick (which goes against the entire timeline idea in the OP) or a sidekick in Toro, who has powers and shines brightly in the darkness, which might not work as well with Batman's schtick. But then again, this setup could REALLY emphasize the darkness and light aspects of Batman and Robin that many have noted.
It's hard for me to figure out Wonder Woman's timeline on Earth-616, since only the Amazons exist here, and I don't know enough about the Human Torch's history to see if any of his supporting cast or villains could be easily slotted into WW's life. If Steve Trevor does not exist, for example, who landed on Paradise Island? Or alternatively what prompted Wonder Woman to leave Paradise Island? Who did she fall in love with and eventually marry if Steve Trevor does not exist? If we weren't constricted by the rules, I'd have Steve Rogers take Steve Trevor's place in her life, which would be interesting, but he's on Earth-2 only. Does the original Diana Prince exist on Earth-616, and if not, how does Wonder Woman establish her secret identity? This might be the most complicated one to figure out.
Anyway, interesting ideas to consider.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 9, 2021 8:40:35 GMT
This reminds me of some things I've thought about trying to reconcile the existence of the Ultra-Humanite with a full Golden Age history in a Post-Crisis DC Universe in which Superman wasn't around until many years later. Surely all the stories featuring the Ultra-Humanite must have happened in the same order, around the same time, but his schemes would've been foiled by others. Besides his first appearance, which was fairly understated, Ultra's early appearances established Terry Curtis/Cyclotron (the grandfather of Nuklon), and showed his placing his brain in the body of actress Dolores Winters (who appeared in a few instrumental issues of All-Star Squadron).
There aren't too many costumed heroes around as early as Ultra's first appearance, so I figured in his first couple appearances he was probably foiled by Slam Bradley. Later he might have been foiled by the Flash or Black Condor.
This kind of replacement theorizing could lead to some good stories in our continuity, too. For example, Earth-X had no Kid Eternity (who was on Earth-S) or Captain Triumph (who was on Earth-2) -- actually, they did, but their heroic careers were basically aborted at the start, as I hope to explain in future stories reintroducing them in a modern context. Anyway, I theorize that the absence of Kid Eternity and Captain Triumph on Earth-X led to a "heroic gap" in which there would've been no one to oppose the villain or problem of the month, unless someone stepped in to fill that gap. I think those stories could be used as jumping off points for Freedom Fighters stories taking place in the 1940s. It would be great, because we have no Freedom Fighters stories taking place during that time, except for a few short "Times Past" scenes here and there.
Likewise, during months after April 1942, when the Quality heroes left Earth-2 for Earth-X, some of their villains might still have been up to no good for quite some time after that, leading to the necessity for Earth-2 heroes to stop them. Hence, some All-Star Squadron stories or solo hero stories (particularly for retroactive heroes like Firebrand II or Amazing-Man) could be written on that basis.
And getting back to the Post-Crisis DCU, during the time when Superman was not a member of the JLA and never had been, I always figured the simplest replacement for Superman during most of those stories (especially the 1970s comics) would be J'onn J'onzz, since he never left Earth for New Mars, as his fellow Martians had long since died. A website called Fanzine, which was active about 20 years ago, had a lot of good articles that likewise tried to reconcile DC's published history with its revised history. I always thought that kind of continuity stuff was interesting, though now I'm more interested in the Pre-Crisis because of the 5 Earths Project. I've also tried to pick out which published Superman stories could still work in his Post-Crisis John Byrne era continuity, and that was quite challenging in itself, since so many things couldn't be used prior to their "present-day" introduction, including virtually every villain except Luthor himself (who is very different), all references to Krypton or Supergirl or Kandor, most adventures in outer space, anything to do with Clark being a TV reporter... the list goes on and on.
I also did a similar project trying to figure out which of Superboy's stories would work in the Time Trapper's Pocket Universe, in which Earth and Krypton are the only planets to exist with life. That eliminates all stories featuring Superboy in outer space or interacting with heroes from other planets. Also, every Lex Luthor story had to be eliminated as well, since the Luthor of that Pocket Universe is very different, and never met Superboy. Not quite as limited, but also not quite as fun.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 9, 2021 12:55:00 GMT
In the Golden Age they didn't have as many crossovers (unless you count retroactive series like INVADERS and ALL-STAR SQUADRON), so for DC at least the most potential for differences outside of their respective titles is in the Justice Society of America stories in ALL-STAR COMICS. Superman and Batman wouldn't have been around to become honorary members, so it's possible Sub-Mariner and Human Torch (Captain America wasn't around in 1940 when the JSA was formed) were involved in the JSA's origin story. But until very recently Sub-Mariner would've been seen as a villain for his villainous actions when he waged war on New York City and the entire upper world around this time. I think that would've changed the dynamic of the JSA origin quite a bit. I'd have to think of that one for a bit. EDIT: According to Marvel Wikia's detailed history of Sub-Mariner, he became a "hero" just in time for that fateful November 1940, so he indeed could've participated in the JSA origin as one of the others, though he'd likely only accept honorary status as Superman did, but for different reasons. I could see Captain America joining the All-Star Squadron when it is formed, and possibly also becoming a short-term member of the JSA like Wildcat and Mister Terrific were in the 1940s. He wouldn't be around after 1945 to become a full-time member. And while Wonder Woman wouldn't have been around to join the JSA as its official secretary (and later full member) in late 1941/early 1942, I can't see the Human Torch playing the same role. Say, if the supporting characters remain on their world of origin, does that mean Captain America's sidekick would be Robin, while Batman's would be Bucky? Would that make the Human Torch's sidekick Etta Candy, with Wonder Woman's sidekick being Toro? What a strange idea! Perhaps Lois Lane had a tempestuous romance with the Sub-Mariner, something akin to the Silver Age Sue Storm and Sub-Mariner pairing, except with no Reed Richards around. The Daily Planet (or Daily Star, if you will) would have rightly seen the Sub-Mariner as a menace, much like the Daily Bugle would claim Spider-Man was in the Silver Age, but with much more reason. Perhaps Lois is the only one to start seeing a softer side to Namor that would a few years later lead him to join the war against the Axis. Superman on Earth-616 in New York City is probably not too different in the Golden Age. I suppose as Clark Kent he might become a newspaper reporter at the same newspaper that Betty Dean later worked at (the newspaper name didn't seem important enough to mention in stories I've seen), after she quit as a policewoman -- or perhaps the DAILY BUGLE back when J. Jonah Jameson was still a reporter. They might be colleagues from his arrival in New York City from whatever real-world small town Clark came from only because they were often present at the same crime scene, and she likely saw him as an annoying, frail fellow compared with Superman. After she became a reporter herself, they probably worked closer together after that. I'd assume Clark would have married Betty instead of Lois in this scenario. No Lex Luthor, no Ultra-Humanite, no Prankster, no Toyman, no Mr. Mxyztplk -- so Superman's main enemies might end up being a few of Sub-Mariner's villains along with random Golden Age Marvel villains. There aren't too many memorable ones. Batman and Bucky's main foe would be the Red Skull, I guess. The circumstances of Batman taking in Bucky as his partner would take some explaining. In some ways it might work better if Bucky was Wonder Woman's sidekick, given their shared military affiliations, though different branches of the military. But that would leave Batman with either no sidekick (which goes against the entire timeline idea in the OP) or a sidekick in Toro, who has powers and shines brightly in the darkness, which might not work as well with Batman's schtick. But then again, this setup could REALLY emphasize the darkness and light aspects of Batman and Robin that many have noted. It's hard for me to figure out Wonder Woman's timeline on Earth-616, since only the Amazons exist here, and I don't know enough about the Human Torch's history to see if any of his supporting cast or villains could be easily slotted into WW's life. If Steve Trevor does not exist, for example, who landed on Paradise Island? Or alternatively what prompted Wonder Woman to leave Paradise Island? Who did she fall in love with and eventually marry if Steve Trevor does not exist? If we weren't constricted by the rules, I'd have Steve Rogers take Steve Trevor's place in her life, which would be interesting, but he's on Earth-2 only. Does the original Diana Prince exist on Earth-616, and if not, how does Wonder Woman establish her secret identity? This might be the most complicated one to figure out. Anyway, interesting ideas to consider. You had most of the same idea I did, and I love the suggestions. Here are of few of my thoughts.
I figured Captain America would definitely be recruited by the JSA, and probably join in early 1942, the time when Wonder Woman would have joined originally. I actually think that, because of his military connections, Cap would mostly fight Wonder Woman's menaces, and his arch enemy would therefore by Paula von Gunther. Sadly, I'm not sure that Paula would ever reform in this reality. Cheetah might also be a Captain America enemy, but without her rivalry with Wonder Woman, she wouldn't be his arch enemy. I definitely would have Steve recruit Dick Grayson as his partner (maybe he goes by Dick the Wonder Boy).
I'm not sure about Toro. I suspect either Superman or Batman would discover him when he starts using his powers, and set him up with a good foster family. My idea is that he will become a solo teen hero, and still friends with Robin (Bucky). But he could become a member of the Bat Family as well. I definitely would like Batman to recruit James Barnes as his partner, and train him to be Robin.
I actually think that the Red Skull is more likely to be Wonder Woman's arch enemy. Because of her involvement with the military, she fought the Axis more than Superman or Batman. Superman fought the Axis power more than Batman did, so I think it would be ironic if his arch enemy was Baron Zemo. Superman could accidentally be responsible for dowsing Zemo in Adhesive X in their first battle (just as the Earth-1 Superman was responsible for accidentally costing Luthor his hair). In this way, Superman's arch enemy is still a mad scientist.
I should have mentioned that Diana Prince exists on Earth-616 and not Earth-2 as well. The contest of the Amazons was arranged by Aphrodite because of the growing power of Mars. It still would have happened even if Steve Trevor hadn't crashed on the island. So Princess Diana will still become Wonder Woman, and still assume the identity of Diana Prince. The difference is she will have no immediate love interest on Earth-616
I love your idea of Superman falling in love with Bette Dean.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 9, 2021 13:01:02 GMT
I assume it will be Commissioner Gordon who helps the Human Torch set up his cover identity as Police Officer Jim Hammond. In the JSA's origin, the Torch will be called in to help Green Lantern and Flash instead of Batman.
It's possible that the Horton Cell technology will still be stolen by the Nazis and used for their own robotics experiments. Certainly the Firebrand Squadron may be created. I'm less certain about the Gremlins, however. It might be stretching it too much for the Earth-2 Nazis to get that same idea.
Speaking of the JSA, what about their counterparts, the Invaders? Since all three of the founding members of the Invaders have been replaced, it is highly unlikely that the team will form at the same time in the same way. I suspect that there will still be a superhero team formed on Earth-616 in the golden age, but under different circumstances. Spitfire will not get her powers without the Human Torch, so I'm thinking it will look less like the Invaders and more like an alternate version of the Liberty Legion.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 9, 2021 18:43:00 GMT
I’m glad you clarified that there is not a one to one switch with, say, Wonder Woman and Human Torch. It makes things much easier to figure out if Captain America gains some elements from both Batman (acrobatic non powered fighter and kid sidekick) and Wonder Woman (patriotic and military links).
Perhaps Toro, if he exists, became a sometime-partner of Superman on Earth-616, but also a kid hero with solo adventures. Batman would already have Bucky. I don’t see Superman becoming Toro’s legal guardian, but perhaps was the one who discovered him at a circus and trained him to be a hero. If there’s a Young All-Stars subteam he would definitely be part of it.
Could Wonder Woman end up joining up as a WAC straight off once reaching Man’s World? She might end up at Camp Lehigh and then over in England by the time D-Day arrives, fighting alongside Sgt Fury on occasion.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 9, 2021 18:46:16 GMT
Also, Spitfire might still exist if either Superman or Wonder Woman gave her a blood transfusion, granting her some or one of their powers.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 10, 2021 1:18:52 GMT
I'd love to see Batman battle against Doc Smart, one of my favorite Human Torch villains.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 10, 2021 1:26:23 GMT
Hmmm. Okay, so would Wonder Woman fall for Nick Fury instead of Steve Trevor? That would be interesting...Fury's definitely a stronger character. Okay, so Superman, Batman and/or Wonder Woman join either the Invaders, Liberty Legion and/ or the All-Winners Squad... So the Invaders/Liberty Legion/All Winners line up would look like this: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Bucky, Toro and the Iron Cross (Clare Gruler), the Fin, Blazing Skull, Major Mapleleaf, Miss America, Thin Man, Union Jack, Vision I, Blue Diamond, Patriot, Jack Frost and the Whizzer. And the Justice Society would look like this- Captain America, Human Torch, Submariner, Robin, Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Dr Fate, Dr Midnite, Spectre, Hourman, Sandman, Atom, Starman and Johnny Thunder, with Wildcat and Mr Terrific joining near the end of the Second World War. The All-Star Squadron included the rest of the DC Golden Age (including pre-Crisis retconned Golden Age) superhero lineup and a summary of their membership can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Star_Squadron_members
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 10, 2021 2:02:13 GMT
Hmmm. Okay, so would Wonder Woman fall for Nick Fury instead of Steve Trevor? That would be interesting...Fury's definitely a stronger character. Okay, so Superman, Batman and/or Wonder Woman join either the Invaders, Liberty Legion and/ or the All-Winners Squad... So the Invaders/Liberty Legion/All Winners line up would look like this: Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Bucky, Toro and the Iron Cross (Clare Gruler), the Fin, Blazing Skull, Major Mapleleaf, Miss America, Thin Man, Union Jack, Vision I, Blue Diamond, Patriot, Jack Frost and the Whizzer. And the Justice Society would look like this- Captain America, Human Torch, Submariner, Robin, Flash, Green Lantern, Hawkman, Dr Fate, Dr Midnite, Spectre, Hourman, Sandman, Atom, Starman and Johnny Thunder, with Wildcat and Mr Terrific joining near the end of the Second World War. The All-Star Squadron included the rest of the DC Golden Age (including pre-Crisis retconned Golden Age) superhero lineup and a summary of their membership can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Star_Squadron_membersRobin did not join the JSA originally. However, with Dick becoming Captain America's partner (i like the name Dick the Wonder Boy for him) Cap might encourage him to join the team, the same way he encouraged Bucky to serve with the Invaders.
How did you derive that membership for the Invaders? As far as I know, Major Mapleleaf and the Fin were never members of either the Liberty Legion or the Invaders during the war, and Clara Gruler wasn't even born then. Is this the modern membership?
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 10, 2021 2:25:02 GMT
Wouldn't the title Dick the Wonder Boy give away his secret identity as Dick Grayson? How about something more oblique, like Grayshield? It'd go with his last name and his affiliation as Cap's sidekick.
I did a composite version of the Liberty Legion, All-Winners and Invaders. Okay, then. The corrected composite membership would therefore be... Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Bucky, Toro, Blazing Skull, Miss America, Thin Man, Union Jack, Vision I, Blue Diamond, Patriot, Jack Frost and the Whizzer. Without Human Torch I, would Toro necessarily adopt that name? Hmmm... Wonder Woman and Miss America would make a formidable team on their own, so would they form a strong friendship within the composite organisation? And I know that Blue Diamond and Jack Frost only had ephemeral appearances- however, they are Golden Age heroes. Does the seventies Golden Age-set Invaders series qualify as canonical here? If so, then the Fin and Silver Scorpion might be eligible, as they were active in Timely Comics during the Second World War.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 10, 2021 2:36:31 GMT
I came up with the name, because Bucky never used a real secret identity. His name is James Buchanan Barnes, and when in costume, he just went by his nickname Bucky. Sicne cap didn't care about getting Bucky a real codename, I figured he wouldn't care about getting Dick one either.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 10, 2021 3:41:26 GMT
However, John, if you're going to keep Robin's traditional origin story, which is that his parents, the Flying Graysons, refused to pay protection money to Gotham ganglord Boss Zucco's mob, then it would be highly practical to provide some additional protection for Dick himself, rather than advertise that he was the only surviving member of the Flying Grayson's family whom the mob might still be after. Especially given that Steve Rogers wouldn't have the same assets to protect him that Bruce Wayne would have in mainstream continuity. So a more opaque sidekick name may be in order, or you may just want to keep the name Robin.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 10, 2021 11:15:04 GMT
I see the logic.
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