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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 10, 2021 12:02:54 GMT
What about for after the war? Here are my thoughts.
Earth-616
The Serpent Crown will still be in Lemuria, and Paul Destine will never get his hands on it. It is possible that Baron Zemo could put Superman into stasis, but I find that unlikely. More likely Superman and Wonder Woman will remain active all the way to the Silver Age of the Marvel Universe, just as they did on Earth-2. They would be seen as elder statesmen of the hero community. I doubt they would join the Avengers, seeing them as “enterprising youngsters” but feeling uncomfortable on a team with so many heroes younger than they are. More likely Superman and Wonder Woman would re-form the All-Winners Squad, recruit golden age marvel heroes who are still youthful for one reason or another. The All-Winners Squad and the Avengers will operate contemporaneously, similar to how the JLA and JSA are in the post-crisis continuity.
Originally, the All-Winners Squad disbanded in 1950, because half their membership either retired or disappeared. Here, the team would remain active until the late 1950s, by which time the members would start to feel their age and retire. There was no investigation comparable to the one which shut down the JSA on Earth-616. Because there was no Karkull event, like the one that slowed the ageing process of all active members of the JSA, most of the golden age heroes will age normally.
Batman would probably retire around 1958, just as he did on Earth-2. I think it would be contrived for him to get into the same accident as Captain America, and anyway he probably wouldn’t survive it, which would be boring. On Earth-77105, where Bucky and Cap remained active after the war, Bucky eventually succeeded Cap in the early 1960s. In this world, particularly without the influence of Helena Wayne (with no Catwoman, a doubt Bruce will get married) Bucky will probably become the new Batman in the early 1960s. As a legend in the superhero community, he would probably be an early member of the Avengers. Toro (maybe he goes by the Human Torch in this reality?) might also remain active into the 1960s, without the traumatic experience of being abandoned by his guardian in 1955.
Earth-2
The Human Torch will likely suffer the same fate as in marvel. The Russians will still develop Solution X-R based on their studies of the Torch in action, which will make him disappear in 1950. He will be revived in 1953, only to vanish again in 1955 when he loses control of his powers and shuts down. When he might be rediscovered and reactivated, I don’t know.
Because there is no Serpent Crown and no Paul Destine, the Sub-Mariner will likely remain active all the way to the present. I think he would become good friends with Aquaman. I can’t imagine that they will not cross over many times. I’m not sure if Namor will marry Lois Lane. He’s not really the marrying kind, at least not at that stage in his life. But it might happen eventually.
Captain America and Wonder Kid might get into a similar accident fighting Baroness von Gunther as they did fighting Baron Zemo. To me, it seems a bit contrived for that exact same scheme to come off in a totally different universe, so I’m going to say no. Like on Earth-77105, Captain America will likely remain active all the way into the present, since the super soldier serum prevents him from ageing. Dick will eventually create his own superhero identity in the late 1950s.
The JSA will still have to disband in the early 1950s when congress demands that they unmask. I don’t think this would affect Captain America or the Sub-Mariner, just as it did not affect Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman.
First, the Sub-Mariner doesn’t maintain a secret identity. He is well known to be Prince Namor of Atlantis. Second, Captain America would be an Icon of America and heroism by this point, just as Superman was on Earth-2 originally. No politician would dare accuse him of treason. Also, it’s unnecessary to make Cap unmask. His secret identity is known to the highest levels of the War Department.
When the JSA comes out of retirement to battle against Vandal Savage, Cap and Namor will probably rejoin, and Dick may join as well.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 10, 2021 13:06:13 GMT
Following up on my last post, I looked up all the adult heroes in World War 2 in the marvel universe who either did not age or aged slowly, and were able to return to active crime fighting in the 1960s
Blazing Skull
Destroyer
Fin
Flexo
Hurricane
Marvex
Prince of Orphans
Thin Man
Vision
Volton
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 11, 2021 2:42:53 GMT
Earth-616: You're assuming Batman wouldn't fall for a combat proficient female superhero like (say) Black Widow, Elektra, or other equivalent female figure to Catwoman. After all, Bats and Black Canary had a thing going on before Dinah chose Oliver, so why not pair him off with Natasha or someone with analogous combat skills? Incidentally, about Superman... given the existence of Krypton in Universe-616, does that mean Power Girl will eventually join Kal-L there? Will Supes choose an eligible female metahuman of his power level eventually? Supes doesn't seem to age as quickly as his fellow JSA members- it was the mid-seventies before he started to develop grey hair in the All Star comic series. As for Wonder Woman, would she settle down, marry Nick Fury and end up as a SHIELD Agent?
Earth-2: I see you're not imprisoning Captain America in ice, or killing off Robin. Wise move. One of my favourite Cap stories had him sidestepping the ice prison and seeing Bucky grow to maturity. However, the effectiveness of either Paula Von Gunther and/or Lex Luthor as an opponent suggests that there will probably be collateral damage in one of their encounters- particularly if the Gerta Von Gunther rescue mission to Nazi Germany goes badly wrong. One of the JSA members who accompanies him may not make it back... perhaps one of the nonpowered ones like Sandman or the Atom? Later on, instead of contributing to the circuitry within the Vision, say T.O.Morrow salvages it from the remains of the Human Torch and uses it for Red Tornado II?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 11, 2021 12:31:01 GMT
Earth-616: You're assuming Batman wouldn't fall for a combat proficient female superhero like (say) Black Widow, Elektra, or other equivalent female figure to Catwoman. After all, Bats and Black Canary had a thing going on before Dinah chose Oliver, so why not pair him off with Natasha or someone with analogous combat skills? Incidentally, about Superman... given the existence of Krypton in Universe-616, does that mean Power Girl will eventually join Kal-L there? Will Supes choose an eligible female metahuman of his power level eventually? Supes doesn't seem to age as quickly as his fellow JSA members- it was the mid-seventies before he started to develop grey hair in the All Star comic series. As for Wonder Woman, would she settle down, marry Nick Fury and end up as a SHIELD Agent? Earth-2: I see you're not imprisoning Captain America in ice, or killing off Robin. Wise move. One of my favourite Cap stories had him sidestepping the ice prison and seeing Bucky grow to maturity. However, the effectiveness of either Paula Von Gunther and/or Lex Luthor as an opponent suggests that there will probably be collateral damage in one of their encounters- particularly if the Gerta Von Gunther rescue mission to Nazi Germany goes badly wrong. One of the JSA members who accompanies him may not make it back... perhaps one of the nonpowered ones like Sandman or the Atom? Later on, instead of contributing to the circuitry within the Vision, say T.O.Morrow salvages it from the remains of the Human Torch and uses it for Red Tornado II? TBH, I was toying with the idea of Batman marrying Black Widow. I'm glad somebody other than me likes the idea. Yes, Power Girl still comes to Earth in 1974. I was thinking of Superman marrying Bette Dean, but if you think it is more likely for him to fall in love with somebody else, I'd love to hear it. My observation is, except for Wonder Woman, Superman has always been more attracted to non-superheroes. I;m not sure if Nick Fury is the marrying kind, but he would probably be Wonder Woman's love interest.
I like your idea of Human Torch being used by T.O. Morrow. Maybe, instead of building the Red Tornado, Morrow just tracks down the Human Torch and reactivates him as his Trojan horse to infiltrate the JSA. The whole reason he designed the Red Tornado the way he did was to evoke memories of the original Red Tornado and get the Society to trust him. Why go to all that trouble, when here is a deactivated android who actually WAS a former JSA member, just waiting to be booby-trapped.
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Post by jonclark on Jul 11, 2021 16:23:10 GMT
In 616 it is possible that Wonder Woman and Superman meet fates similar to the Submariner, the Human Torch and Cap.
I can see a Paul Destine/Wizard type event where Clark winds up with amnesia. Maybe the Submariner route where Superman winds up that homeless guy in New York's Bowery section or more happily he simply becomes that merged Clark Kent like when under the Wizard's spell and winds up marrying Betty Dean as Clark. Betty being no Lois Lane she never manages to realize why Superman vanished (or that he was Clark) so it takes until some Marvel event in the 60's before he remembers who he is,
As an alternate- Superman's absence is more like the Human Torch/Captain America where research by enemies led them to kryptonite putting Clark into a powerless/suspended animation state for over a decade.
Diana like on the 1970's TV show might on 616 be called home to Paradise Island post-war and only return when the gods are alarmed by the near-cataclysm of the Cuban Missile Crisis. This would serve like Cap's being frozen to pull a patriotic hero from action from 1945 til roughly the Avengers' era.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 11, 2021 20:46:10 GMT
I can see a Paul Destine/Wizard type event where Clark winds up with amnesia. Maybe the Submariner route where Superman winds up that homeless guy in New York's Bowery section or more happily he simply becomes that merged Clark Kent like when under the Wizard's spell and winds up marrying Betty Dean as Clark. Betty being no Lois Lane she never manages to realize why Superman vanished (or that he was Clark) so it takes until some Marvel event in the 60's before he remembers who he is, I really like this idea. I even have a thought for how it could happen.
In this version of Earth-616, King Naga crushed and slaughtered the rebellion who tried to steal the Serpent Crown from him, so the Antarctic City was never founded. That means that King Naga kept the Serpent Crown.
Maybe, in the 1950s, Superman ends up in a battle with King Naga, perhaps rescuing some shipwrecked humans enslaved in Lemuria. Naga finds that he can't kill Superman, so he attacks him telepathically, making him forget he is Superman and giving him a mental block against using his powers.
In this state, Superman marries Betty Dean, but like Lois Lane she discovers he is Superman after they marry. The Human Torch was able to restore the Sub-Mariner's memories simply by shocking his system through immersing him in water. Betty might be able to restore Superman's memories by exposing him to a little bit of kryptonite. |
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 11, 2021 23:44:09 GMT
The other question that occurs to me is what happens during Marvel's Silver Age? I can't see Spiderman being tangibly affected, but Iron Man might derive some benefit from linkage to Wayne Enterprises and strategic alliances with Stark Industries. Perhaps Bruce might even befriend Tony during his alcoholic phase and help him out of it. Here's a slight problem with the Fantastic Four, though- so Clark and Betty are watching events unfold when a crisis emerges in Earth orbit. Clark changes to superman and rescues Reed, Sue, Ben, Johnny and Victor from the cosmic radiation burst. Result- no Human Torch. And what about the eventual emergence of the X-Men? I can't see Superman or Batman having much time for anti-mutant genophobia. Even if Wonder Woman and Nick don't marry, though, I think Diana's military affiliations would lead her to become closely involved with SHIELD when it eventually evolves. Good to see someone likes the Bruce/Natasha relationship scenario idea too. Would Supes and Hawkeye have the same issues Cap and Hawkeye did when the Avengers formed? And I take it that Henry Pym wouldn't even think of hitting Janet if Diana was around as an Avengers member. Looking further afield, how would the Avengers respond to the Shi'Ar/Kree rivalry, given Superman would be known to both?
Meanwhile, on Earth-Two... I don't have any problems with the concept that Captain America living through the interwar years and he would be unassailable by the time Macarthyism rolls around. And thank goodness we wouldn't have to put up with those shrill annoying right-wing fake Caps during the interwar years as a consequence. If we're talking real time ageing here, and having Cap in either the JSA and/or All Star Squadron, might he form a relationship with one of the female team members? And would Robin/Greyshield/Dick quaff the super-soldier serum when Cap eventually retired? Although one issue with T.O.Morrow reviving Human Torch and using him might be the latter's extent of control over an android he didn't create. And wouldn't some of the older JSA lineup know the Human Torch from the war years? As for Submariner, he might have an altogether different relationship with the JSA in its later years, given that there mightn't be a Sue Storm to complicate things around later on.
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 12, 2021 4:50:30 GMT
The other question that occurs to me is what happens during Marvel's Silver Age? I can't see Spiderman being tangibly affected, but Iron Man might derive some benefit from linkage to Wayne Enterprises and strategic alliances with Stark Industries. Perhaps Bruce might even befriend Tony during his alcoholic phase and help him out of it. Here's a slight problem with the Fantastic Four, though- so Clark and Betty are watching events unfold when a crisis emerges in Earth orbit. Clark changes to superman and rescues Reed, Sue, Ben, Johnny and Victor from the cosmic radiation burst. Result- no Human Torch. And what about the eventual emergence of the X-Men? I can't see Superman or Batman having much time for anti-mutant genophobia. Even if Wonder Woman and Nick don't marry, though, I think Diana's military affiliations would lead her to become closely involved with SHIELD when it eventually evolves. Good to see someone likes the Bruce/Natasha relationship scenario idea too. Would Supes and Hawkeye have the same issues Cap and Hawkeye did when the Avengers formed? And I take it that Henry Pym wouldn't even think of hitting Janet if Diana was around as an Avengers member. Looking further afield, how would the Avengers respond to the Shi'Ar/Kree rivalry, given Superman would be known to both? Meanwhile, on Earth-Two... I don't have any problems with the concept that Captain America living through the interwar years and he would be unassailable by the time Macarthyism rolls around. And thank goodness we wouldn't have to put up with those shrill annoying right-wing fake Caps during the interwar years as a consequence. If we're talking real time ageing here, and having Cap in either the JSA and/or All Star Squadron, might he form a relationship with one of the female team members? And would Robin/Greyshield/Dick quaff the super-soldier serum when Cap eventually retired? Although one issue with T.O.Morrow reviving Human Torch and using him might be the latter's extent of control over an android he didn't create. And wouldn't some of the older JSA lineup know the Human Torch from the war years? As for Submariner, he might have an altogether different relationship with the JSA in its later years, given that there mightn't be a Sue Storm to complicate things around later on. Bruce Wayne would be the same generation as Howard Stark. He would probably know Tony growing up. Considering how rebelious Tony was as a child and a teen, I think he would resent any of his father's friends trying to "set him straight."
The Fantastic Four's space flight might be prevented (though even Superman cannot be everywhere at once. Many heroes received their powers in accidents after he debuted). I don't think there is anything substantial that Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman can do about anti-mutant prejudice, except condem it, which is exactly what Captain America and many other marvel heroes did.
I like the idea of Diana possibly becoming an agent of SHIELD, in order to stay close to Nick Fury. I don't think either Superman or Wonder Woman would join the Avengers, as they would see them as youngsters and feel out of place with them. Instead, they will prefer the company of heroes from their own generation, probably re-forming the All-Winners Squad.
On the subject of the Avengers, I imagine that Batman II (Bucky) would be one of the first to join, and would take the place of Captain America on the original team. When Iron Man, Giant-Man, the Wasp, and Thor leave, Batman II will form the new Avengers. He would probably still recruit Hawkeye, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, but he also might reach out to his old friends from the Kid Commandos; Golden Woman, Human Top, and Toro (who would probably go by the Human Torch in this world). All of them were alive and either active or semi-retired at the time, and all of them in the prime of life, like Bucky.
On Earth-Two. . . Captain America doesn't age, because of the serum. I think he will never retire, but Dick will probably become a hero in his own right in the late 1950s, and maybe join the JSA as well, or form his own team. Maybe he will call himself Falcon  At any rate, the Super Soldier Serum was lost when Cap got his origin, so Dick will still age normally and depend on training to keep his edge
The fact that the JSA members know the Torch will play right into Morrow's hands, and make them trust him quicker. Morrow didn't really have much control over the Red Tornado either, more like post-hypnotic suggestions. I think that adventure would be almost exactly the same.
the Sub-Mariner would not loose his memories this time around, and so he would be on hand to prevent the destruction of Atlantis by nuclear bombs, just as Aquaman did in Adventure Comics #260. Therefore, Namor would never go through his period of supervillainy in the 1960s. I suspect he would be happily married to Lois Lane by this point.
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 12, 2021 5:14:32 GMT
Perhaps Bruce Wayne might not be able to reach Tony Stark, but might Bucky Barnes be able to? Something to bear in mind. As for superheroes who received their abilities through accidents, the Flash, Cyborg, the Hulk and Spiderman are the ones who come readily to mind in this context (although of course Cyborg wouldn't exist on Earth-Two), which effectively leaves the Hulk and Spiderman. I do take your point when it comes to Superman being unable to prevent every accidental contingency happening, and that would be even more so on an Earth-Two without Superman or Power Girl. Given the smaller scale of Spiderman's accident, he'd still exist in the altered Earth-616, as would the accident that resulted in the Hulk (although I imagine that Wonder Woman would have some very stern words to General Ross and try to reach out to Bruce). However, the Fantastic Four and Victor Von Doom's space trip would be screened on national television networks, giving Superman advance warning and enough time to move the space station out of the way of the cosmic radiation storm, so possibly no Fantastic Four on this Earth-616. And while Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman wouldn't neccessarily join the Avengers, there might be opportunities for liaison between specific heroes (Ms/Captain Marvel and Power Girl? Ms/Captain Marvel and Wonder Woman? Actually, given Power Girl's independent frame of mind, she'd probably join the Avengers regardless of what Kal-L thought about them. And I can definitely imagine Ms/Captain Marvel being a strong admirer of Wonder Woman). The same might apply to Batman II and Daredevil, Black Widow, the Punisher, Wolverine and others with combat proficiency and a darker outlook on life. As for Superman, what if he worked at the Daily Bugle instead of the Daily Star/Planet? I can imagine Clark Kent and Peter Parker bonding over their shared journalist identites, and Jonah Jamieson unfavourably comparing Spiderman to Superman.
And then there's the mutant question. I've always been puzzled about the contradiction between Cap's liberalism and probable moral authority given his WW2 record, the fact that he must have known about the Earth-616 Holocaust and the fact that mutants were amongst its victims, and the fact that anti-mutant bigotry is so widespread on that world, Magneto aside. Superman would have analogous moral authority if he replaced Cap on the altered Earth-616.
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Post by jonclark on Jul 12, 2021 7:36:41 GMT
I do take your point when it comes to Superman being unable to prevent every accidental contingency happening, and that would be even more so on an Earth-Two without Superman or Power Girl. Given the smaller scale of Spiderman's accident, he'd still exist in the altered Earth-616, as would the accident that resulted in the Hulk (although I imagine that Wonder Woman would have some very stern words to General Ross and try to reach out to Bruce). However, the Fantastic Four and Victor Von Doom's space trip would be screened on national television networks, giving Superman advance warning and enough time to move the space station out of the way of the cosmic radiation storm, so possibly no Fantastic Four on this Earth-616 I think you have the movie confused with the comic origin of the Fantastic Four. On Earth-616 (the published comics one) Reed built a spaceship. The exact nature of the ship has varied. In the original 1961 take the rocket was the first moon shot (8 years before Apollo 11). Later takes had the rocket designed to be interplanetary possibly even interstellar. But on Earth-616 it was always a rocket launch. The government funding was in jeopardy . The rocket may have had a design flaw or it may have been less than 100% finished. But Reed talked his buddy ,pilot Ben Grimm, into an unauthorized launch. The idea was to leapfrog government and financial backers by presenting the spacecraft as successful before anyone just scrapped the idea of the ship. Reed's girl-friend Sue Storm and her kid brother were in on the plan and wound up as a result as passengers on that unauthorized test flight. The four were hit by the cosmic rays due to insufficient shielding and the rocket crashed in upstate New York. No publicity on this launch as it was basically Richards stealing the ship. No involvement of Victor Von Doom, who at that point was still consolidating power behind the scenes in Latvaria. Those were from the movies to insert Doom into the story from day one (like Burton's Batman fused the Joker and Joe Chill to tie Joker to Batman's origin). The comic Dr. Doom had a separate origin and didn't cross paths with Reed Richards between Victor's expulsion from college (when Reed was a classmate) and the 5th issue of the team's adventures. So the most likely scenario would be Wonder Woman or Superman being alerted only when the rocket was being launched. And that is assuming the military sent an immediate alert to SHIELD (which Diana Prince is tied to) and/or Superman (assuming he is Jack Kennedy/the governments top-line-of-defense). If this is treated at first like an internal matter where the base security doesn't call for help until they have more facts- well the origin is over before anyone else knows. Remember in the actual comics about Earth 2 Superman wasn't able to prevent Vulcan's creation which is the same type of "unexpected event involving top-secret government space program" not an Apollo 13 "the world is watching" event. |
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 12, 2021 12:09:39 GMT
Power Girl would definitely join the Avengers. They would be more her kind of people. I like the idea that having Superman for a friend would mellow JJJ's opinion of superheroes.
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Post by dans on Jul 12, 2021 20:14:48 GMT
I hope someone is capturing all this in a pair of timelines!
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Post by DocQuantum on Jul 12, 2021 20:49:46 GMT
Speaking about Silver Age Marvel, we should establish whether we're using the actual publishing date of the comics or a sliding compressed time scale, like Marvel has done since the late 1970s/early 80s. In that case, the age of Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and the Avengers, et al, wouldn't start for at least a few more decades, depending on where our "present-day" cutting off point would be. Some have argued that Marvel continuity basically ended in 1989, when they started bending the rules a bit too much (I don't have any specific examples, but an extremely detailed website analyzing the Fantastic Four as the Great American Novel goes into this in great depth). In the case of the sliding time scale, we're looking at the Golden Agers being probably at least retirement age by the time the Silver Agers come along, except in cases where they are nigh-immortal (Wonder Woman), aging slowly (Superman), or have successors/are rejuvenated (Batman -- Bucky as Batman II, and/or Batman eventually rejuvenated in a Marvel equivalent of Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus pits). |
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jul 13, 2021 0:44:04 GMT
Speaking about Silver Age Marvel, we should establish whether we're using the actual publishing date of the comics or a sliding compressed time scale, like Marvel has done since the late 1970s/early 80s. In that case, the age of Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, and the Avengers, et al, wouldn't start for at least a few more decades, depending on where our "present-day" cutting off point would be. Some have argued that Marvel continuity basically ended in 1989, when they started bending the rules a bit too much (I don't have any specific examples, but an extremely detailed website analyzing the Fantastic Four as the Great American Novel goes into this in great depth). In the case of the sliding time scale, we're looking at the Golden Agers being probably at least retirement age by the time the Silver Agers come along, except in cases where they are nigh-immortal (Wonder Woman), aging slowly (Superman), or have successors/are rejuvenated (Batman -- Bucky as Batman II, and/or Batman eventually rejuvenated in a Marvel equivalent of Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus pits). I'm currently using the Original Marvel Universe chronology, which I have praised before on this site, for Earth-616. I am, however, including as much as possible information added from the 1990s to the present. That means the history of the marvel universe is compressed back towards the debut of the Fantastic Four. So the years from 1961-2021 will take place from 1961-1990 |
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Post by redsycorax on Jul 13, 2021 1:21:26 GMT
I can confirm that there is a Marvel version of the Lazarus Pit- it's located in the Savage Lands, and consists of blood from the Marvel creature Man-Thing, having identical effects when it comes to cellular regeneration and recovery from bodily ailments. Not sure that that would extend to immortality though: www.cbr.com/avengers-ka-zar-ressurection-man-thing-shanna/ |
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At any rate, the Super Soldier Serum was lost when Cap got his origin, so Dick will still age normally and depend on training to keep his edge
