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Post by starskyhutch76 on Aug 7, 2022 17:50:46 GMT
On the world with Batman replacing someone, you could use a butterfly effect sort of thing, too, with a ripple effect effecting other events. Bruce Wayne could have taking in waywaard youth Rick Jones and trained him as Robin. If this is WWII, it could be an "Earth-2" Rick Jones. There could be other changes, too, like Gorilla City now being located in Kazar's savage land.
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Post by redsycorax on Aug 7, 2022 23:23:07 GMT
Perhaps Gorilla City and Wakanda could switch places?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Aug 8, 2022 10:13:00 GMT
On the world with Batman replacing someone, you could use a butterfly effect sort of thing, too, with a ripple effect effecting other events. Bruce Wayne could have taking in waywaard youth Rick Jones and trained him as Robin. If this is WWII, it could be an "Earth-2" Rick Jones. There could be other changes, too, like Gorilla City now being located in Kazar's savage land. That's a good idea. I'll add it. |
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Post by johnreiter902 on Aug 8, 2022 10:14:06 GMT
Perhaps Gorilla City and Wakanda could switch places? I'm only switching Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman with Sub-Mariner, Human Torch, and Captain America. Only the minimum number of things needs for their origin come with them. |
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Post by johnreiter902 on Aug 14, 2022 18:59:30 GMT
On reflection, I think I may have underestimated the All-Winners Squad. I assumed they would disband in 1955, by which time most of their WW2 membership would have retired. I didn't consider the possibility that they might continue to recruit new heroes after the war. With that in mind, I updated the timeline, and I am posting here a running membership of the All-Winners Squad in this alternate Earth-616.
1945 Changes:Vision, Blue Diamond, Thin Man, and Red Raven retire, for various reasons. The AWS recruits one of their old friends, the Destroyer, who is at loose ends after the surrender of Germany.
Membership Angel Batman Black Marvel Blazing Skull Destroyer Jack Frost Miss America Patriot Silver Scorpion Superman Whizzer Wonder Woman 1946 Changes: Jack Frost disappears. Silver Scorpion is killed in battle
Membership
Angel
Batman
Black Marvel
Blazing Skull
Destroyer
Miss America
Patriot
Superman
Whizzer
Wonder Woman
1950 Changes: Miss America, Whizzer, and Patriot retire.
Membership Angel Batman Black Marvel Blazing Skull Destroyer Superman Wonder Woman
1953 Changes: Black Marvel retires, and the Angel is expelled when he becomes a murderous vigilante. Marvel Boy and Venus join the All-Winners Squad Membership
Batman
Blazing Skull
Destroyer Marvel Boy Superman Venus Wonder Woman
1955 Changes: Batman announces he is going into semi-retirement, while he phases in James Barnes as the new Batman. Blue Marvel joins the All-Winners Squad at Superman's suggestion Membership
Blazing Skull Blue Marvel Destroyer
Marvel Boy
Superman
Venus
Wonder Woman
1959 Changes: Marvel Boy disappears. The AWS recruits 3-D Man Membership 3-D Man Blazing Skull
Blue Marvel
Destroyer
Superman
Venus
Wonder Woman
1961 Changes: 3-D Man retires Membership
Blazing Skull
Blue Marvel
Destroyer
Superman
Venus
Wonder Woman
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jun 7, 2023 13:52:21 GMT
I finally got back to this, and figured out the rogues galleries that Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman would fight in the 1960s
SUPERMAN
Wizard
Puppet Master
Impossible Man
Mad Thinker
Kryptonite Man
Gregory Gideon
Baron Zemo
BATMAN
Miracle Man
Destroyer
Xemu
Trapster
Painter of 1000 Perils
Acrobat
Sorceror
Eel
Plant Man
Beetle
Planner
Tumbler
WONDER WOMAN
Hate-Monger
Gargoyle
Tyrannus
Metal Master
Leader
Boomerang
Batroc
Red Skull
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Post by DocQuantum on Jun 11, 2023 22:30:16 GMT
Excellent work on your timelines, John! Question about the Fantastic Four: does Johnny Storm still call himself the Human Torch, if Thomas Raymond is still active by 1961? Or would Raymond have been absent for a while by this time, so Johnny Storm's becoming Human Torch II is justified by the original's years-long absence?
Here's a weird idea: What if Thomas Raymond takes the name of "Firestorm" when he returns in 1963, since the Human Torch name has now been popularly taken up by Johnny Storm? He might have a very young nephew or cousin at the time named Ronnie Raymond (though this might not work if the family name was originally Rockwell as later revealed in Firestorm's series -- though the cousin angle could still work, with the Raymond name taken up by Ed Rockwell in honor of his distant cousin Thomas Raymond after "Shoe" Shine killed Ed's wife Elaine with a car bomb and he and little Ronnie went into Witness Protection). Young Ronnie, as a teenager, would later become Firestorm II in the late 1970s! EDIT: Alas, this likely won't work, since Thomas Raymond and Ronnie Raymond are on different Earths!
Another alternative is that Thomas Raymond uses the name of Flamebird in 1963, with a slightly updated "bird" motif! It would be an interesting coincidence, given that the first story featuring Superman and Jimmy Olsen as Nightwing and Flamebird was published that year. Superman could have even been the one to suggest the name to Raymond, knowing of the existence of actual flamebirds on his native Krypton.
With Sub-Mariner on Earth-2, all of his interactions with the Fantastic Four would never have occurred. Perhaps some of those interactions, such as a "romance" with Sue Storm, could have been with Thomas Raymond instead? He and her brother have identical powers and are alike in other ways, and Sue always did have a bit of uncertainty about marrying Reed in those early days.
Perhaps it went like this:
Around 1961/62 Johnny Storm has the idea of tracking down the original Human Torch (this was when he was still in retirement), and ends up finding Thomas Raymond, who due to his earlier capture and brainwashing by the communists is down on his luck. The original Human Torch ends up meeting the Fantastic Four, and he takes to Sue, noting that she doesn't have a wedding (or engagement) ring on her finger and figures she's fair game. A bit of hostility grows between the O.T. Human Torch and the male members of the FF, but it's more of a heated rivalry than anything. Raymond eventually gets tired of being mistaken for the new Human Torch and changes his name to Flamebird (or Firestorm), with a new costume that gives him a more distinct look. He joins the Avengers as Flamebird. Later, he finally gives Sue and Reed his blessing when they are married.
Perhaps Raymond is involved in the Fantastic Four case in which they discover the existence of the Inhumans of Attilan, and it is at that time that he discovers his own recessive Inhuman genes from one of his ancestors. Although he remains in the Avengers for a few more years, eventually he relocates to Attilan and joins his fellow Inhumans.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jun 11, 2023 22:51:27 GMT
By the way, I believe J. Jonah Jameson is a bit too old to be a cub reporter in the style of Jimmy Olsen. According to Marvels he was an adult at the time and a full-fledged reporter at the Daily Bugle, and according to Sgt. Fury #110 (see below) he was the Daily Bugle editor back then, no longer a beat reporter. He's also always been a cranky sort and hated heroes from the beginning of the Marvels era.
Perhaps, for your Jimmy Olsen stand-in, a better pick would be photographer Phil Sheldon from MARVELS. He was an adult by 1939 just as Jameson was, but he was younger and had a much more positive attitude about things than the hard-edged Jameson even back then. In the regular Marvel Universe/Earth-616 Phil would end up losing his idealism and breaking off his engagement to Doris after witnessing the cataclysmic first battle between the Human Torch and the Sub-Mariner. But in your revised Earth-616, his early friendship with Superman would have helped him to retain his more hopeful worldview. He also wouldn't have lost his vision in his left eye, since the Human Torch/Sub-Mariner battles never took place in that timeline.
Marvels #1 also reveals that the man who originally owned the Daily Bugle at the time was Mr. (Martin) Goodman, named after the owner of Timely Comics.
More importantly for the non-compressed Marvel timeline, a younger (around thirty or so) J. Jonah Jameson himself was revealed to have been the editor of the Daily Bugle during World War II, according to Sgt. Fury #110 (a later retcon made this Jameson a guy named Walter Jameson, but that was only done to preserve the timeline), so he would've been Clark's boss even back then, possibly even by the time he had started working there!
Also, I should point out that Betty Dean was a policewoman from 1937 to 1941 and only at the end of 1941 became a reporter. It's very likely that she joined the Daily Bugle after running into Clark Kent several times at crime scenes in Manhattan, though, and that may have occurred a year or two earlier than it does in the real Earth-616 timeline.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jun 11, 2023 23:57:28 GMT
What about Namor's cousin Namora? Since she's part of Namor's family and world, she would be on Earth-2 as well given that their Atlantis exists there (just as all of Krypton is on Earth-616 in this timeline). Namora would have made her public debut as Namor's sometime-partner and heroine in her own right in 1947.
It's likely that she never died while searching for her lost cousin, but had an on-and-off career as a heroine for several decades, remaining young all that time just like Namor.
Perhaps Namora was the one who died battling the Anti-Monitor in 1985 in place of Supergirl.
Also, what happened to Lady Dorma if Namor married Lois Lane? Perhaps she ended up marrying his pal Aquaman (the golden age version was not Atlantean), who thus gained honorary Atlantean citizenship.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jun 12, 2023 0:19:56 GMT
Another point of interest is Carol Danvers (Ms. Marvel/Captain Marvel). One can't help but wonder by her last name of Danvers if she was related to Fred Danvers, Kara Zor-El's adoptive father. Fred Danvers' own son was involved in the military and died in the Korean War, so there's a military tradition in that family. However, Fred Danvers exists on Earth-1, not Earth-2 or Earth-616.
In the revised Earth-616 timeline, could Kara Zor-L have been taken in by Carol's father, Joe Danvers? And thus taken the secret identity of Linda Danvers (or Karen Danvers) similar to her Earth-1 counterpart? Of course, the reasoning for this might not make sense at all. It really depends on how old Kara was when she came to Earth, and what Superman did with her when she got here. Midvale and its orphanage don't exist in this timeline, of course. And this Superman is a couple of decades older and married, so he might want to take her in as family.
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Post by DocQuantum on Jun 12, 2023 0:31:56 GMT
Would Clark Kent have continued at the Daily Bugle or moved on to another newspaper? J. Jonah Jameson would have purchased the Daily Bugle himself by the early 1960s at the very latest, so he would be the publisher by then. He might have hired Clark Kent as his chief editor in the 1950s, but Clark might not have enjoyed working for such a taskmaster after all these years and moved on. Perhaps Clark and Betty ended up in television a few years earlier than Clark in DC Comics' publishing timeline. Or they could have changed careers.
Alternatively, if they had stayed at the Daily Bugle as reporters, one wonders if Clark figured out early on that young Peter Parker was really Spider-Man and helped protect his identity from Jameson after seeing how effective a crime-fighter the boy turned out to be. Peter Parker might even have become Superman's pal.
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Post by redsycorax on Jun 12, 2023 1:27:28 GMT
Which reminds me of the final issue of Batman '66 in which Peter Parker does make an appearance and ends up getting crowded by Jimmy Olsen and Clark Kent, as well as several DC, Charlton and other media figures. Actually. given that Olsen and Parker are both photojournalists, that might be a good fit. And I suspect all it would take would be Clark's x-ray vision and supersmell to sense that Peter's molecular biology had significantly altered after having been bitten by that radioactive spider. Although how would Peter's spider sense respond to Clark? Would he realise his Bugle colleague had secrets of his own?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jun 13, 2023 11:21:33 GMT
Excellent work on your timelines, John! Question about the Fantastic Four: does Johnny Storm still call himself the Human Torch, if Thomas Raymond is still active by 1961? Or would Raymond have been absent for a while by this time, so Johnny Storm's becoming Human Torch II is justified by the original's years-long absence? Here's a weird idea: What if Thomas Raymond takes the name of "Firestorm" when he returns in 1963, since the Human Torch name has now been popularly taken up by Johnny Storm? He might have a very young nephew or cousin at the time named Ronnie Raymond (though this might not work if the family name was originally Rockwell as later revealed in Firestorm's series -- though the cousin angle could still work, with the Raymond name taken up by Ed Rockwell in honor of his distant cousin Thomas Raymond after "Shoe" Shine killed Ed's wife Elaine with a car bomb and he and little Ronnie went into Witness Protection). Young Ronnie, as a teenager, would later become Firestorm II in the late 1970s! EDIT: Alas, this likely won't work, since Thomas Raymond and Ronnie Raymond are on different Earths! Another alternative is that Thomas Raymond uses the name of Flamebird in 1963, with a slightly updated "bird" motif! It would be an interesting coincidence, given that the first story featuring Superman and Jimmy Olsen as Nightwing and Flamebird was published that year. Superman could have even been the one to suggest the name to Raymond, knowing of the existence of actual flamebirds on his native Krypton. With Sub-Mariner on Earth-2, all of his interactions with the Fantastic Four would never have occurred. Perhaps some of those interactions, such as a "romance" with Sue Storm, could have been with Thomas Raymond instead? He and her brother have identical powers and are alike in other ways, and Sue always did have a bit of uncertainty about marrying Reed in those early days. Perhaps it went like this: Around 1961/62 Johnny Storm has the idea of tracking down the original Human Torch (this was when he was still in retirement), and ends up finding Thomas Raymond, who due to his earlier capture and brainwashing by the communists is down on his luck. The original Human Torch ends up meeting the Fantastic Four, and he takes to Sue, noting that she doesn't have a wedding (or engagement) ring on her finger and figures she's fair game. A bit of hostility grows between the O.T. Human Torch and the male members of the FF, but it's more of a heated rivalry than anything. Raymond eventually gets tired of being mistaken for the new Human Torch and changes his name to Flamebird (or Firestorm), with a new costume that gives him a more distinct look. He joins the Avengers as Flamebird. Later, he finally gives Sue and Reed his blessing when they are married. Perhaps Raymond is involved in the Fantastic Four case in which they discover the existence of the Inhumans of Attilan, and it is at that time that he discovers his own recessive Inhuman genes from one of his ancestors. Although he remains in the Avengers for a few more years, eventually he relocates to Attilan and joins his fellow Inhumans. I like your idea for the interaction between the two human torches. I don't think Thomas would be a derelict like the Sub-Mariner was, but otherwise I like the storyline. I think I would have him go with Firestorm |
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jun 13, 2023 11:22:07 GMT
By the way, I believe J. Jonah Jameson is a bit too old to be a cub reporter in the style of Jimmy Olsen. According to Marvels he was an adult at the time and a full-fledged reporter at the Daily Bugle, and according to Sgt. Fury #110 (see below) he was the Daily Bugle editor back then, no longer a beat reporter. He's also always been a cranky sort and hated heroes from the beginning of the Marvels era. Perhaps, for your Jimmy Olsen stand-in, a better pick would be photographer Phil Sheldon from MARVELS. He was an adult by 1939 just as Jameson was, but he was younger and had a much more positive attitude about things than the hard-edged Jameson even back then. In the regular Marvel Universe/Earth-616 Phil would end up losing his idealism and breaking off his engagement to Doris after witnessing the cataclysmic first battle between the Human Torch and the Sub-Mariner. But in your revised Earth-616, his early friendship with Superman would have helped him to retain his more hopeful worldview. He also wouldn't have lost his vision in his left eye, since the Human Torch/Sub-Mariner battles never took place in that timeline. Marvels #1 also reveals that the man who originally owned the Daily Bugle at the time was Mr. (Martin) Goodman, named after the owner of Timely Comics. More importantly for the non-compressed Marvel timeline, a younger (around thirty or so) J. Jonah Jameson himself was revealed to have been the editor of the Daily Bugle during World War II, according to Sgt. Fury #110 (a later retcon made this Jameson a guy named Walter Jameson, but that was only done to preserve the timeline), so he would've been Clark's boss even back then, possibly even by the time he had started working there! Also, I should point out that Betty Dean was a policewoman from 1937 to 1941 and only at the end of 1941 became a reporter. It's very likely that she joined the Daily Bugle after running into Clark Kent several times at crime scenes in Manhattan, though, and that may have occurred a year or two earlier than it does in the real Earth-616 timeline. I'll change it to Sheldon instead of Jameson |
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Post by johnreiter902 on Jun 13, 2023 11:30:35 GMT
What about Namor's cousin Namora? Since she's part of Namor's family and world, she would be on Earth-2 as well given that their Atlantis exists there (just as all of Krypton is on Earth-616 in this timeline). Namora would have made her public debut as Namor's sometime-partner and heroine in her own right in 1947. It's likely that she never died while searching for her lost cousin, but had an on-and-off career as a heroine for several decades, remaining young all that time just like Namor. Perhaps Namora was the one who died battling the Anti-Monitor in 1985 in place of Supergirl. Also, what happened to Lady Dorma if Namor married Lois Lane? Perhaps she ended up marrying his pal Aquaman (the golden age version was not Atlantean), who thus gained honorary Atlantean citizenship. Namora definitely exists, and would be active all the way to the present, though I figured she would go into semi-retirement when her daughter was born. Namorita would be a member of Infinity Inc, replacing Fury. I don't know about having Namore die in place of Supergirl. I don't think she is strong enough.
I LOVE the idea of Lady Dorma marrying Aquaman
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