Relationships Across the Morality Barrier?

[redsycorax]

Probably the most iconic example of the relationship between morally ambiguous heroes and villains is the one between Batman and Catwoman. However, there are clearly others. 
-Roy Harper and Cheshire (Teen Titans), resulting in the birth of a daughter, Lian
-Green Lantern and Star Sapphire
-Changeling/Beast Boy and Terra
... which does raise some interesting questions. It always seems to be a male hero and female supervillain that fall for one another. Why is this necessarily the case? Why couldn't it be a female superhero and male supervillain? Or a mixed-morality lesbian or gay couple, these days? Which does raise the question... who might you posit as being in a mixed-morality relationship and how might it end? Would the villainous partner necessarily reform? Or might the hero be corrupted by their relationship? 

[dans]

of course it is always the good boy and the bad girl... because comics are usually written for the male readers. Another reason is that in the past, the vast majority of starring characters in comic books were the male heroes. I think that though it is evolving, in the past, having a goody-goody heroine taking up with a bad guy would have raised a lot of protest in the reader base who wouldn't want their goody goody heroine damaging her reputation.

I think in other media it is often the good, moral, girl falling for the bad boy (such as Rebel Without a Cause or Leader of the Pack).

In my own stories, Zing and Crescendo seem to be forming an affection 'across the morality barrier'.

[redsycorax]

Well. to some extent, Matrix/Supergirl II had such a relationship with Lex Luthor II in the Post-Crisis John Byrne Superman series. However, that's the only example of the female hero/bad boy relationship I can recall.

[DocQuantum]

The original Supergirl had several brief or short-lived relationships that included a couple of villains. Super-Scavenger and Dynamic come to mind.

[DocQuantum]

Wonder Woman was mostly dating Steve Trevor before she finally married him (the 3rd Steve who had the memories of the first 2), but during a time when there was no Steve she was involved with a guy who turned out to be part of the Royal Flush Gang.

[DocQuantum]

Other prominent female heroes like Hawkgirl/Hawkwoman or Black Canary have been in relationships virtually the whole of their careers, so you’re not going to see these too much with them.

But if you look at team books you’ll see more examples, such as Raven getting involved with at least one bad guy who fed on her powers. Light Lass (Ayla Ranzz) got involved with Lone Wolf (later Timber Wolf) when he was thought to be a villain.

I can’t think of too many examples of male villains who were in any relationships, let alone with a hero. Probably because their primary foes were not the opposite sex.

[DocQuantum]

All the examples cited in this thread have the heroes not tolerating the other’s criminal behavior, I should point out. Batman never got involved with Catwoman until after she reformed, and while he was involved with Talia to a certain extent she was not acting as a criminal herself at the time.

So it’s not really morally ambiguous if the villain must first reform in order for any relationship to continue in earnest. Thank goodness for that! We don’t need morally ambiguous “heroes”. Can you imagine heroes being involved with criminals while knowing they were actively committing crimes at the time? That kind of thing could be done in the short term, but not long term, or it gets kind of gross. It would be like a police officer getting involved with a criminal and looking the other way when that criminal commits crimes rather than doing his or her duty. That's pretty much the definition of corruption.

I created a situation like this, in which a character (Ray Terrill, alias Ray II of Infinity Inc) is secretly dating a thief while knowing she's a thief, but I can't see it lasting long term unless he quits Infinity Inc or she quits her high-tech thefts. In any case, I'll need to resolve the moral conflict eventually, so I'm glad this thread jogged my memory.

[DocQuantum]

Oh, and that reminds me of another example: Brain Wave II's mother was Merry the Girl of 1000 Gimmicks, and she married the original Brain Wave, a villain. We never saw what that relationship was like, or what moral conflicts Merry must have gone through when she realized she had fallen in love with such a dangerous super-villain, but I am sure that Merry Pemberton had quit her heroics by the time she married and had their son.

Also, it all happened "off-camera," and in the distant past. Someone really needs to write a Times Past story about it soon.

[dans]

didn't Brain Wave have mind control powers? Maybe Merry never gave it a thought...

[DocQuantum]

That’s true, but even though he was a villain, he seemed to have a sense of honor, as evidenced by how he died to save his son’s life. Somehow I think it was more complicated than mind control.

[redsycorax]

Mind control has some ghastly moral implications, though, so if Merry wasn't fully cognisant of what was happening when she married Brain Wave... or perhaps she thought she could 'reform' him? Did the relationship last, or did the two of them eventually divorce, because if she was under mind control, that has all kinds of abusive undertones. It needn't be physical abuse, but unfortunately, abusive relationships have other dimensions- psychological and emotional, to name but two. 

[dans]

Yes, mind control is scary...

[jonclark]

Feb 1, 2023 2:39:06 GMT dans said:

Yes, mind control is scary...

In more ways than one. 

It makes a great scapegoat for anything one doesn't want to take credit for.

Obsidian: "Did I really agree to this mission or did Brainwave Jr. mess with my mind"
Hank King: "Did Todd really volunteer for the mission or did i unknowingly give him a little mental push"

Sportsmaster: "I only attacked the JSA because the Ultra-Humanite controlled my mind"
Can you be sure he is lying? 
Can he actually believe it himself?

And it allows you, as a writer, to totally reverse anything a character does by playing the "mind control" card.  Want to undo Superman's marriage- mind control.  Want to make a reformed villain lose all his character development- blame it on Zatanna messing with their head.

[dans]

Never worry about anyone discovering your secret identity because Green Lantern can just wipte that knowledge from the minds of EVERYONE in the world. If he can do that, why can't he wipe out criminal tendencies from everyone? It started at least as far back as Doc Savage:

"The man of bronze took it upon himself to remake violent criminals into good citizens. He established his Crime College in upstate New York, where he brought the thugs he captured during his adventures. (To be fair, they were killers and mostly would have gotten the electric chair or life sentences if he had turned them in. Doc thought this was a waste of a potentially useful life.) Here he has them taught a useful trade and basically brainwashed to become decent, law-abiding men and women. To accomplish this, Doc first wipes their memories of their adult lives away completely by brain surgery which he performs himself."

I don't remember anyone in comics exploring the negative effects of suppressing memories and aspects of their personalities.

If Brain Wave forced Merry to think of him as a good person, think of the mental conflicts she'd have to deal with when she heard or read news about his criminal activities... very creepy...