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Post by johnreiter902 on Sept 11, 2023 2:11:04 GMT
The Legion of superheroes has a rule that you must have actual superpowers to join
However, many members of the Legion have powers that are physiologically normal for their species. They are only superpowers by human standards
This is what the membership of the Legion would look like if they followed their rule strictly
Lightning Lad Duo Damsel (her power is that she continues to live with only 2 bodies) Colossal Boy Invisible Kid Star Boy Brainiac 5 Sun Boy Bouncing Boy Ultra Boy Light Lass Ferro Lad Princess Projectra Shadow Lass Chemical King Timber Wolf Wildfire Tyroc Dawnstar (her wings are normal, but her tracking power is superhuman)
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Post by redsycorax on Sept 11, 2023 2:47:23 GMT
Hmmm. So that means that Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy, Dream Girl, Phantom Girl, Shrinking Violet, Superboy, Supergirl, Mon-El, Matter-Eater Lad, Chameleon Boy, Chemical King, Blok and Polar Boy are out of contention because of their species-derived metahuman abilities. I haven't included Element Lad or Karate Kid on this list, because Element Lad has been established to be the only survivor of his species and thus, his abilities are not duplicated. Similarly, Karate Kid's abilities are the result of his training and possibly a recessive metahuman gene somewhere, so they could join. I think there might be questions of degree involved here as well- while there have been Imskian, Braalian and Titanian rivals to the established actual Saturn Girl, Cosmic Boy and Shrinking Violet, it has also been established that Saturn Girl is one of the strongest telepaths on Titan, just as Dream Girl is one of the strongest precognitives on Naltor. In Violet's case, it seems to be combat experience using her scale condensation abilities, which could be extended to Phantom Girl and her intangibility. As for Chameleon Boy, Durlans seem to be isolationists and xenophobes, so there are only a handful of offworld Durlans. Chemical King and Element Lad's abilities differ in terms of scope- Element Lad can transmute elements, while Chemical King works with chemical compounds and can trigger phase changes within them.
There are some problems with the strict observance of the no powers duplication rule. Would Lightning Lad alone have been able to stop the attempted assassination of R.J. Brande en route to Earth, given that it was Saturn Girl whose telepathic abilities alerted her to the assassin's presence and intent? Without Superboy, Supergirl and Mon-El, there might well be additional Legion fatalities in the course of combat. As well as that, the strict no duplication clause would have eliminated most of the membership of the Legion Espionage Squad, with possible implications for hostilities between the United Planets, Khundish Empire and Dominators. And given that Mon-El's vulnerability is to lead instead of kryptonite, do his abilities duplicate those of Superboy and Supergirl?
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Post by johnreiter902 on Sept 11, 2023 11:15:16 GMT
Good point about Element Lad. Since there are no longer any other Trommites, he too should be on the list. I agree that the Legion seems to recruit people based on their skill level and training as much as their powers, which explains Karate Kid
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Post by dans on Sept 11, 2023 11:29:57 GMT
silly rules, written to keep the Legion size manageable for writers and readers. And actually kind of demeaning - implying that the most superior member of the baseline human species is less capable than the weakest member of any other species that is differently abled than baseline humans. Another rule that is implicit in that one rather than explicit is that the unique power must be useful in a terrestrial environment. The powers of Light Lass and Star Boy, for example, are pretty much useless in zero gravity, while Mon-el's powers would be negated on Daxam.
And this rule is often ignored just for the convenience of the writers - once Superboy was in, for example, his powers should have mandated, no Supergirl, no Mon-El, no Timber Wolf, no Karate Kid...
Think of a combat unit where the rule is: only one of each type of weapon and piece of equipment is allowed... only one pistol, one rifle, one grenade, one walkie talkie, one helmet...
I just had an interesting story idea to throw out... suppose a group of powerful Legionnaires was stranded on a planet with ultra-high gravity, and the only one capable of moving was Violet, in her shrunken form? It would be good for the ego of the early Shrinking Violet if she (and only she) was the only Legionnaire capable of resolving a situation when her 'more powerful' teammates were all pinned helplessly to the floor...
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Post by DocQuantum on Sept 11, 2023 15:55:48 GMT
It’s funny that characters now in their 20s and 30s are still following the rules that their three founding members wrote when they were only 14 years old.
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Post by redsycorax on Sept 11, 2023 23:25:35 GMT
Clearly, they're not operative in the case of composite superpowers, where pragmatism seems to be the case, given Superboy, Supergirl and Mon-El are all members, given their abilities obviously duplicate one another and those of Ultra Boy. Although one could argue Jo Nah's penetra vision can see through anything but inertron, so it doesn't duplicate the x-ray vision capabilities of the other three and Mon-El's anti-lead serum negates the his intrinsic vulnerability to red suns. The writers certainly got more creative later in the Legion's later tenure- Lightning Lad and Saturn Girl were in semi-retirement on Winath with their growing family, so when Ayla regained her Lightning Lass abilities, she was able to return to the Legion. Although much would centre on whether that clause in the Legion Constitution would have been overruled for pragmatic reasons by the United Planets or become moribund anyway. It was never formally abandoned but obviously it must have lapsed, given that Tellus, Lightning Lass and Magnetic Kid all became Legionnaires despite their abilities duplicating those of Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Cosmic Boy respectively.
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Post by DocQuantum on Sept 12, 2023 0:02:18 GMT
It was never formally abandoned but obviously it must have lapsed, given that Tellus, Lightning Lass and Magnetic Kid all became Legionnaires despite their abilities duplicating those of Saturn Girl, Lightning Lad and Cosmic Boy respectively. Actually, they were chosen precisely because the original trio was quitting the team at the time, allowing replacement members with the identical powers to join. Otherwise, they wouldn't have been allowed to join because of the rule (in Lightning Lass' case she was already a member, but her power had recently changed from anti-gravity to her original electrical powers, and her twin Garth stepped down after the birth of his and Imra's child so that Ayla could remain in the team).
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Post by redsycorax on Sept 12, 2023 1:12:57 GMT
From memory though, Tellus also had telekinetic abilities not shared by the rest of the team, so that might have been sufficient differentiation in his case. And you're right about Garth and Ayla, I've just remembered that particular scene when she rejoined the Legion, although I'm not sure how that would apply to Rokk and Pol. I don't remember Cosmic Boy ever formally departing the Legion. Clearly, given Garth and Imra's subsequent reappearances, semi-retirement on Winath was probably quite flexible if the Legion ever needed to call on their experience as founding members- which makes sense. After all, Cosmic Boy and Saturn Girl were both early former team leaders.
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Post by DocQuantum on Sept 12, 2023 1:54:02 GMT
All three founders left the team at the same time; it was a pretty big deal at the time, and I think R.J. Brande had some words to say about it. It was around the time of the "Legionnaires 3" mini-series, and after that Rokk Krinn and Lydda Jath went on a time travel trip as seen in the Cosmic Boy mini-series that tied into Legends.
But heroic retirements never last in comics, so of course they all returned at various times after.
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Post by jonclark on Sept 12, 2023 9:22:44 GMT
Brainiac 5 was always a cute case to me. His power was his intellect which largely was represented by gadgets. Just why his gadgets were acceptable but someone like Storm Boy was inelligible for artificial powers. And before someone points out that artificial powers might be more liable to failyre- I ask why that is never brought up with Wildfire whose artificial suit was what allowed him to control his powers,
Maybe Brainy and Drake need to push for a sub-team of people using gadgetry. And Karate Kid needs to get some highly skilled warriors (like a 30th Century version of Green Arrow or Captain Boomerang). Or put the gadgets and combat skills together to get a 30th century Batman.
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Post by DocQuantum on Sept 12, 2023 18:42:29 GMT
Yeah, the 12th level intellect (whatever that means) was considered his super-power, but it was a stretch of the imagination.
I think I'd go with the gadget-based heroes as a separate team of Legion rejects, similar to the Subs but possibly temporary, and done in a different way, such as your examples of 20th century heroes but with more advanced equipment. They would likely have to find some ways to overcome some of the limitations of such equipment, such as training for hand-to-hand combat if their equipment no longer works. For example, I've seen Green Arrow's bowstring cut by a villain before, but it doesn't stop him. He just resorts to his hand-to-hand combat skills if that happens.
This team could feature in a Legion story as friendly "antagonists" or mere rivals, taking care of problems before the Legion can arrive.
Or they could be a more permanent team, but only if the writer wants to try doing a spin-off story in which they are the stars. A different kind of story would be needed then.
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Post by dans on Sept 12, 2023 19:55:53 GMT
Yeah, the 12th level intellect (whatever that means) was considered his super-power, but it was a stretch of the imagination. Hey, watch it, there! That was the most exciting super power of all, for me!
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Post by redsycorax on Sept 13, 2023 0:11:40 GMT
In Brainiac 5's case, it could be argued that the inventions and contributions that he made through his technological aptitude were the product of his superpower, namely his twelfth level intellect. And as for Wildfire needing a containment suit to safely utilise his abilities, I think that's fair and consistent. Again, when the extremely annoying Quislet (and Tellus) joined, both of them had containment suits as well, due to the fact that Tellus came from Hykraius, either a gas dwarf or a super-earth water world. Storm Boy's abilities also clearly duplicate those of Lightning Lad and Lightning Lass, dependent on the periods one is talking about, so that renders them ineligible under the duplication of powers clause. And using a gimmick didn't necessarily mean that the Legion didn't work alongside heroes who did- one obvious example was Rond Vidar, Universo's son, who became a thirtieth century Green Lantern.
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Post by jonclark on Sept 13, 2023 2:18:19 GMT
In Brainiac 5's case, it could be argued that the inventions and contributions that he made through his technological aptitude were the product of his superpower, namely his twelfth level intellect. And as for Wildfire needing a containment suit to safely utilise his abilities, I think that's fair and consistent. Again, when the extremely annoying Quislet (and Tellus) joined, both of them had containment suits as well, due to the fact that Tellus came from Hykraius, either a gas dwarf or a super-earth water world. Storm Boy's abilities also clearly duplicate those of Lightning Lad and Lightning Lass, dependent on the periods one is talking about, so that renders them ineligible under the duplication of powers clause. And using a gimmick didn't necessarily mean that the Legion didn't work alongside heroes who did- one obvious example was Rond Vidar, Universo's son, who became a thirtieth century Green Lantern. Right but my point was not whether beings like Quislet or Tellus needed adaptive equipment or if Storm Boy duplicated existing powers. I'm asking about the logic of saying that Quislet or Wildfire were acceptable candidates despite needing equiipment to participate as Legionnaires but that the guy who invented Wildfire's suit couldn't qualify as a mwember using the same suit even if the suit gave him a unique power. Or that Brainiac Five's intellect qualified him for membership but more of his actual field value to the team consisted of gadgets that anyone (like for instance Duo Damsel) could use just as effectively.
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Post by redsycorax on Sept 14, 2023 1:47:38 GMT
I think the Legion might have come in for some understandable flak over its lack of non-humanoid members, or those from non-carbon-based biospheres, so if life support equipment were required to enable them to breathe in a carbon-based biosphere like that of Earth, that might be considered legitimate. It is not the presence of their respective protective suits that gives Tellus, Quislet or Wildfire their abilities, it is their bodily attribute itself, so therefore to exclude them from Legion membership on the mere basis that they require a protective suit to survive in a carbon based biosphere (in the case of Quislet or Tellus), or to provide structure to a sapient anti-energy configuration (as in Wildfire's instance), would be perceived as discriminatory against specific categories of non-humanoid/non-carbon based species. On the other hand, their membership would improve external perceptions of team diversity and facilitate United Planets funding provision, or logistical support.
In the case of Brainiac 5, yes, his intellect is the reason he's a Legion member and its practical application would be technological aptitude. It might well be the case that once the technology is developed, other Legionnaires could then use it, but that's not the point. It is that Querl's intellect was responsible for the initial concept, its design and development into a suitable device that other Legionnaires could then operate. (Although I do keep wondering, what would happen in the context of a descendant of Superman's adversary Drax, who had a twentieth level intellect and who could therefore outstrip Querl in that context?)
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