Netflix Sandman: Without DC Characters?

[redsycorax]

I'm not sure I like this turn of events. While there are Sandman characters with minimal overlap with the rest of the DC multiverse, there are definitely characters who do belong there. I'm thinking particularly of Lyta Hall (formerly Fury, Earth-Two daughter of Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor, and a member of Infinity Inc), mother of Daniel Hall, who takes over from Morpheus as Sandman II at the end of the series.  And frankly, I'd make a case for Morpheus belonging there, given that his brother Destiny was introduced pre-Crisis.  It also means that the Netflix iterations would have to skip such excellent stories as the Urania Blackwell/Element Woman swansong, merely because of their DC connections. Yeah, I know it's technically post-Crisis, but John Constantine, Swamp Thing and Destiny were all on Earth-One at the time of the Crisis, so they're canonical: www.cbr.com/sandman-dc-universe-netflix/

[DocQuantum]

The Sandman series was built on the horror comics of the 1970s. Destiny, Cain & Abel, Lucien, the Three Witches, even the Mad Mod Witch (Fashion Thing) were from these older comics. I would hope at least the horror hosts are included.

[DocQuantum]

I guess they don’t want any costumed heroes (like the 1970s Sandman or his successor Hector Hall, who could be merged as Garrett Hall to avoid DC continuity stuff, with a pregnant wife named Lyta). But how about Doctor Destiny and his Materioptikon, which is called the Dreamstone? Recovering it and other items was a pretty important element in the early stories. They could just call him Dr. Dee and make him a lunatic who gained the Dreamstone from an occultist ancestor and who has been using it not as a super villain but to secretly gain power over people.

[redsycorax]

Update: It does look like the Netflix Sandman will have Lyta Hall, formerly Earth-Two's Fury, daughter of Wonder Woman and Steve Trevor, who became the mother of Daniel Hall (Sandman II): www.cbr.com/sandman-lyta-hall-wonder-woman-daughter-dc-comics/

[DocQuantum]

I’ve been watching the series. In some ways it’s much more faithful to the series than I’d have expected, though they take a lot of liberties with the source material.

Brute and Glob, for example, don’t exist but are replaced by a single nightmare called Gault.

And the 1970s Sandman only exists as a childish heroic fantasy alter ego of young Jed Walker. He does appear in the costume though!

Lyta Hall does appear but as a normal woman whose husband Hector died months ago, but seems able to continue on in dreams. Not sure why yet.

[redsycorax]

Actually, the 1970s Sandman was a children's heroic fantasy of Jed Walker in the comics too, so that's already recorded continuity. And Lyta Hall's husband Hector (the retconned 1970s Sandman) had died beforehand. At some point, though, Morpheus will confront Hector with the information he's just a dream now, and end his existence. And the whole chain of events that result in the death of Morpheus and his replacement with Lyta's son Daniel will swing into play.

[DocQuantum]

The idea of the 1970s Sandman being a heroic fantasy is a retcon, though. That Sandman actually joined the JLA as an honorary member in the 1980s, and appeared in Wonder Woman as well.

[redsycorax]

From what I remember, though, the concept of the seventies Earth One Sandman was one of Jack Kirby's less successful character revisions and consequently, it was vulnerable to post-Crisis reformulation. Remember, the original DC Sandman comic of the seventies only lasted two years (1974-76) before being swallowed by the DC implosion. Moreover, the appearance of Sanford in Wonder Woman 300 (1983) was due to his prolonged entrapment and he had been missing for several years (1976-1983) in his "Dream Dimension." His only other appearance, was, as you've said, in Justice League of America Annual 2 (1983). He wasn't a particularly popular character and many  fans disliked the childish provenance of that Sandman iteration. Added to which, there were serious doubts about his competence and abilities voiced  in both those titles. And thus, in 1988, Hector Hall took over from Garret Sandford, and lasted two years before it was revealed that Hall had died some time before and a 'ghost imprint' was the one in the subsidiary "Dream Dimension." So, as you've said, a retcon, true. However, Gaiman should be complimented for using the character at all.

You'd have to acknowledge, Doc, that when DC fans think of the Sandman title, the characters that they tend to think of are Wesley Dodds, the Golden Age/Earth-Two Sandman, or Morpheus of the Endless/Dream, given the ephemeral nature of the Jack Kirby Sandman and the unpopularity of the character. Wes Dodds was an evergreen character and the Vertigo Sandman Mystery Theatre title was well-written and true to its period, the forties. And the Gaiman Dream and the Endless characters are masterpieces.

We don't have to preserve all iterations of a given character if the concept was flawed in the first place. Kirby may have been a formidable presence and produced some excellent, enduring characters, but perhaps the Silver Age Sandman wasn't one of them. I mean, who remembers Kirby's Atlas the Great and the Dingbats of Danger Street from that period, either?


en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandman_(DC_Comics)

[DocQuantum]

Nov 12, 2022 2:08:26 GMT redsycorax said:

We don't have to preserve all iterations of a given character if the concept was flawed in the first place.

Your opinion.

Nov 12, 2022 2:08:26 GMT redsycorax said:

Kirby may have been a formidable presence and produced some excellent, enduring characters, but perhaps the Silver Age Sandman wasn't one of them. I mean, who remembers Kirby's Atlas the Great and the Dingbats of Danger Street from that period, either?

We do. We remember them all.

It's part of what the 5 Earths Project is all about.

[reichsmark]

The first issue of the Danger Street mini is coming out in a couple of weeks. The Dingbats will be part of it as will Lady Cop and everyone who appeared in First Issue Special. That would mean Atlas would also appear. It is a Black Label series so currently isn't considered part of continuity.
Unless its one of the new earths listed in the forthcoming Dark Crisis Guidebook coming out after the conclusion of Dark Crisis.

[redsycorax]

Okay, I will confess that even if Kirby isn't my particular creator preference, that doesn't mean I don't appreciate some of his more lasting work- Darkseid and Apokolips appear to have withstood the test of time, while New Genesis has faded somewhat, although I never really fell for the Forever People or Mister Miracle all that much- however, Mister Miracle and Big Barda have survived, so my individual preferences are irrelevant here. OMAC, Kamandi, the Demon Etrigan and Kobra are also some of his better creations, as were the revitalised Manhunter/s. That said, I reserve the right to raise eyebrows at some of the more questionable renovations, such as Transilvane in the Jimmy Olsen Project story arc and the Silver Age Earth-One Sandman. While Transilvane is ripe for satirical recapitulation (my Earth-12 version shows what happened after the tapes got switched to Oklahoma and the effects that mythos had on the microplanet...), I don't think his Sandman work was of his usual high quality. Even the best creator doesn't hit the target all the time. Obviously, though, it may always be possible that some enterprising 5E author can reinterpret the character and make it interesting.

[starskyhutch76]

Nov 12, 2022 8:02:51 GMT DocQuantum said:

Nov 12, 2022 2:08:26 GMT redsycorax said:

We don't have to preserve all iterations of a given character if the concept was flawed in the first place.

Your opinion.

Nov 12, 2022 2:08:26 GMT redsycorax said:

Kirby may have been a formidable presence and produced some excellent, enduring characters, but perhaps the Silver Age Sandman wasn't one of them. I mean, who remembers Kirby's Atlas the Great and the Dingbats of Danger Street from that period, either?

We do. We remember them all.

It's part of what the 5 Earths Project is all about.

Exactly. We don't disregard anything. Instead, we look for ways to make it work. We've even written stories here based off Bob Haney's major continuity contradictions. Now that's a challenge!